Honda Accord series hybrid design

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Has anyone caught wind of the nuts and bolts of Honda's latest hybrid system?

They threw virtually everything about IMA out the window and adopted a hybrid system very similar to that of a diesel-electric locomotive; the serial hybrid design. However, it has one main difference, the ability to mechanically connect the engine to the wheels via ONE overdrive gear ratio.

Quote:

Ferdinand Porsche used this arrangement in the early 20th century in racing cars, effectively inventing the series-hybrid arrangement.


Basically, for most lower speed operation the engine acts as a prime mover- it spins a generator. From here electrical energy is converted to chemical energy into the Li-Ion battery pack. From there, it is converted back to electrical energy and distributed to the "traction motor" as needed. There is zero mechanical connection to the wheels. However the process of converting electric - chemical - electric is inefficient- losses remain (also why this type of hybrid is not normally desirable).

Honda's solution? Take advantage of the ICE disconnect. They can tune the engine to be efficient in a narrow RPM range, and then operate it in that range to compensate for energy-conversion losses. The net result is more stable (not better but more stable) efficiency during various operating regimes than say a gearbox. They've accepted energy transformation losses and offset it by using efficiency logics, losing gearbox frictional losses and using a narrowly tuned engine netting overall gains.

So they've got the city operation covered, but how about steady-state cruising?
Using a serial-hybrid operation for this would not be efficient, as there would be too much loss from energy transformation. A direct mechanical connection is still more efficient, therefore the Honda Accord hybrid system has ONE gear, an overdrive. This gear is engaged via clutch during steady state cruising over 44MPH for maximum efficiency. So in essence there is no transmission, apart from one OD. With the clutch engaged, the system operates like IMA- the motor supplements the narrowly-tuned ICE's dead spots for a seamless powerband at higher speeds. Below 44MPH, the engine cannot engage due to the OD ratio being so tall.

http://www.technologyreview.com/view/520...-to-hit-50-mpg/

While I don't like Alex Dykes as a writer or pseudo-auto journalist (really, I can't stand him- no concept of objectivity at all) he sure is creaming his shorts over the Accord Hybrid.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/10...eo/#more-612689

The drawbacks? @$35,700MSRP it ain't cheap, and at 3700lbs, it's pretty massive.
 
It is very innovative and new, but i'd want to see how they hold up for at least 5 years before buying into such a design. Very early fuelly results indicate it is not blowing anyone away with MPG, yes i know its winter.

It just costs too much. You can buy an LX accord or Sport accord and have fuel for years and years and years before you would touch the price of the hybrid. Currently hybrids are all high trim models, so its more fair to compare with an EX-L. When you factor in the new, low production, high demand scenario you will be paying full MSRP at least. Compared to 10% off other non hybrids on average.
 
The previous Accord V6 Hybrid sold for $35,000 (in today's devalued dollars) and was pretty much a flop. People didn't think it was worth paying so high a price for so little bump in MPG.

I am expecting the new Accord I4 hybrid to also flop.
 
Originally Posted By: dareo
It is very innovative and new, but i'd want to see how they hold up for at least 5 years before buying into such a design. Very early fuelly results indicate it is not blowing anyone away with MPG, yes i know its winter


Can't blame anyone for the wait and see approach, it really comes down to the electrics with this one. It would be hard to mess up a single mechatronic clutch IMO. You can program-in smoothness with those permanent magnet motor/generators, which are essentially servomechanisms- with precise control over acceleration/deceleration. This is also how newer smart alternators are working as well, for start-stop crank positioning, mild regeneration and even starting- the servo principle. The system is remarkably non-complex and that can only be a good thing for the reliability IMO

Originally Posted By: blackman777
The previous Accord V6 Hybrid sold for $35,000 (in today's devalued dollars) and was pretty much a flop. People didn't think it was worth paying so high a price for so little bump in MPG.

I am expecting the new Accord I4 hybrid to also flop.








If they don't get a control of that price, it's possible
 
The Volt transmission is more like the HSD transmission I think. The Honda is simpler ie doesn't have any planet gears AFAIK.
 
Originally Posted By: jrustles

Can't blame anyone for the wait and see approach


I hear you there; I waited until this year before buying a V8. Wanted to make sure they got the bugs out, kept to I4's until now. Might be a while before I try out these new-fangled hybrids.
lol.gif
 
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: jrustles

Can't blame anyone for the wait and see approach


I hear you there; I waited until this year before buying a V8. Wanted to make sure they got the bugs out, kept to I4's until now. Might be a while before I try out these new-fangled hybrids.
lol.gif



I can't help but think 1930s after reading that post.
 
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: jrustles

Can't blame anyone for the wait and see approach


I hear you there; I waited until this year before buying a V8. Wanted to make sure they got the bugs out, kept to I4's until now. Might be a while before I try out these new-fangled hybrids.
lol.gif



heh.
cylinder configuration, yeah that's sketchy stuff right there
 
Liion is too expensive and though coulombically efficient, too much of a safety hazard to run that way, IMO.

As someone who is involved in the design and build of multi-MWh, multi-MW battery packs, Id not be comfortable with such an approach.

Converter inefficiencies lose 10% or so in the round trip, and the battery at rate is only around 90% efficient too. Even with improvements on SFC, this can be troublesome for many operational modes.
 
True, so you don't think Li-ion is the way to go for hybrids, what's best trusty MiMH?

The safety thing with the Li-ion is why Honda put a solid metal firewall behind the backseat (no fold down) because of their unique safety concerns


Also, check out this cool flash animation of an HSD PSD
http://eahart.com/prius/psd/

Honda seems to be adamantly opposed to using the planet gearset in their product it seems, thus their latest solution.
 
Seems like that's a perfect setup for a plug in hybrid.

VW's hybrid setup makes more sense to me. With the ultra efficient 7 speed automated manual, and the motor/generator/turbo 1.4 high compression engine all capable of providing motive power.

The electric motor is between the eng and trans and can be disconnected from the engine. It can drive the trans in any gear.

The only flaw in VW's system is in execution (small battery and motor) and not in design. Limiting it's EV speed and MPG.
 
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