Help Needed on Quieting Engine and Oil Choice

[Bugshu]

Ok Friends, I have a challenge for you.

I put new speakers in my Honda Pilot. Not the real loud high dollar speakers but fairly good speakers that improved the sound of the car. Anyway, I took it to a guy that had qualified for Nationals in SPL competitions and he said that I should enter some shows and compete in the SQ category because it sounded really good. Anyway, unlike the SPL competitions which measure how loud your car gets the SQ competitions measure how good your car sounds as SQ stands for sound quality.

Now, I believe that there are two reasons that my pilot sounds good compared with others. The first is that there is a lot of glass relative to the size of the car and Im getting good reflections and ambience in the car. The acoustics are better than in most any other car. The second is that with the help of most of you the engine runs like silk and I have less engine noise than most. Im using Honda engine oil that is high in Moly and other additives with a Valvoline Silver synpower pack. Hey eventually I will go to synthetics but my first oil change was free from the dealer.

Now the challenge for each of you is to present ideas where I can quiet the engine perhaps a further 10 db with oil and additive choices. There are people that literally spend $5,000 for an amplifier that lowers signal to noise ratios by 1% over $500 amplifiers. I think that I can sneak in my more "normal" system and by paying attention to engine noise and other factors can compete with them. Anyway, Ive had 4-5 experts tell me that its one of the best sounding cars in the country and I havent even begun to tap the wealth of knowledge that each of you brings to the table.

Ok, the challenge is to take an already quiet engine and reduce the noise by 10 db which should take 2-4 db of cockpit noise out of the car and give me a big advantage in a sq competition at car shows. 3 db might not seem like much but in a sound competition its absolutely HUGE !!!! Nobody on the SQ competition circuit actually worries much about engine noise and I think I can sneak in a secret advantage that is equally as effective as a $5000 amplifier or a $2500 set of speakers that are only slightly better than more reasonable priced equipment.

Advice here is needed !!!!!

Happy Motoring All,

Bugshu

 

[bigpaulo]

You're in Texas? Try a thicker oil.

1. Run either GC if you can find it, or M1 T&SUV 5W-40 (or even M1 0W-40, although it'll shear down to a thick 30W most likely).

2. Put Lube Control at recommended doses in your motor oil, power steering fluid, transmission fluid, and even coolant. NOT brake fluid!

3. Use OEM oil filter, or search for one that is known to be quiet with your car... lots of after-market oil filters can cause new noises, usually associated with ADBV.

4. Any muffler/exhaust tricks you can employ?

5. Dynamat everything you can... if you're really into it, you've already done this or the equivalent!

Be aware that reducing unwanted noise from your engine may unmask noise from your stereo you didn't want to be detected before... it's like chasing down rattles, you fix one, then you notice another

 

[TomJones76]

In Australia, that car might be specced for oils as high as 10W40.
Try running a good 10W40 in that Honda. If you see If you don't see sub-freezing temperatures, you might want to go with a quality diesel oil like Delvac 1300 15W40 or Shell Rotella T 15W40.
If you do see sub-freezing temps, I'd reccomend trying Mobil 1 Truck & SUV 5W40 or Shell Rotella T Synthetic 5W40.

 

[Bugshu]

The Car is Dynamatted forever. I brought in a roll of 60 square feet of sound deadener and my speaker installer used it all and then put in another 40 so square feet of Dynamat Extreme. I think that I have over 100 square feet of sound deadener in the vehicle actually. The car is tomb quiet. Even at 85 mph its probably quieter than most Lexus and Mercedes cars. My installer was odd. Hes won a world SQ championship in Iasca and hes obsessed with quality. Even though I brought him what I considered "normal" equipment for a basic sound system upgrade he went berserk and built this competition type car that exceeded my expectations by a good amount. Anyway, trust me the car is dynamatted pretty good.

I cant hear any muffler noise but thats because he put 2 fans in the back to cool my little amplifier. Its in the rules that you have to have fans cooling your amplifier and even though my little guy is so small that it might not need it I have them. They look like little fans for a computer. One competitior in the pro division added 4 catalytic converters but thats overkill for me and Im not going to do anything like that with my car. I dont have a $5000 amplifier and Im not going to add $5000 of exhaust.

Im not trying to be difficult and am seriously trying to learn here. 3db isnt much noise in truth and most people wouldnt pay much attention to it but these golden eared judges will notice.

How does thicker oil make an engine quieter than thinner oil. We arent talking UOA's and engine oil debate but rather issues with quietness.

The rules state that a car has to be 100% street legal and functioning. You turn your car on and it has to be able to drive to a judges station. He hands you a cd and you insert it. You show the judge how to work volume and go forward and backward with the CD tracks so he can access the various tracks on the CD and hear what he needs to hear. The car is running at idle so heat and shearing arent an issue.

2-3 db of noise can win or lose a competition and even an engine running at idle will make some noise. Furthermore, if there is alternator whine then you have a mandatory 5 point deduction in your score. You need the engine to run quiet and the alternator to do its job unnoticed.

Ive heard people mention that esters and moly can plate up an engine and make it run smoother and more quieter. Others think that thicker oil does the same.

I have tons of LC and ARX but Im not honestly sure what it might do to quiet an engine. It helps it run cleaner but is it helping me keep things quiet?

Id like to consider SX-Up by Molakule and perhaps Neutra 131 or the Moly treatment from Schaeffers but I dont want to be running 80% additives and 20% oil.

What would each of you do to get an engine to run as pristinely quiet as you possibly could?

Happy Motoring All,

Bugshu

 

[Ray H]

Decibel ratings are logarithmic, not linear. Each 3 dB decrease changes the absolute sound pressure by half - a 10 dB reduction in absolute engine noise level would require reducing its operating noise to 1/8th its current noise level. Good luck accomplishing THAT!

Maybe an alternate example will drive home the concept you're clearly not comprehending. A 1,000 watt amplifier will only result in a 3 dB increase in loudness compared to what's achievable with a 500 watt amplifier. A 3 dB change may not sound like much (pun intended), but getting there is a whole 'nother matter. If you wanted a 10 dB increase in sound pressure level over what's achievable with a 500 watt amplifier (which due to the non-linear sensitivity of the human hearing response "sounds" only about twice as loud), you'd need an amplifier rated at 4,000 watts! (Priced one lately?)

[ May 18, 2005, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: Ray H ]

 

[JHZR2]

10 dB will be nearly impossible. Its not as simple as the numerics suggest.

I am not sure that youll get much noise reduction from your engine by running a different oil, though you certainly can give M1 T&SUV a shot (dose it with some moly via valvoline or schaeffers 132 additive).

Id suggest that you look into the following:

-ensure that fuel pump buzz doesnt come in. In some vehicles the fuel pump is enlarged, or located in a spot where there is minimal insulation, and sometimes a little bit of that noise comes in, particularly when at idle.

-try and double up to create more sophisticated surface on your underhood pad. I dont know how much space you have under there, but Id assume there is some. The more sound energy you can absorb through there, the better.

-look into the firewall sound insulation set they sell for w123 and other chassis MB diesels. It essentially is made of a thermally resistant material, and sits along the firewall. The goal is to keep a little bit of noise out. This extra layer of engine noise isolation would likely be very worth it.

-maybe consider upsizing your alternator. So long as it isnt too big, so it runs in a very inefficient range, it would likely have to work less, and from what Ive seen, some alternators can get a little noisier under load.

-extend your exhaust pipe a little bit to get it away from the vehicle

-add a second set of floormats to help prevent quite as much resonance from the exhaust system through the floorboards.

Hope this helps,

JMH

 

[y_p_w]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ray H:
Decibel ratings are logarithmic, not linear. Each 3 dB decrease changes the absolute sound pressure by half - a 10 dB reduction in absolute engine noise level would require reducing its operating noise to 1/8th its current noise level. Good luck accomplishing THAT!

---

However - human perception of sound is also logarithmic. Although 10dB louder may be 10 times more energy, the ear will only perceive an incremental increase.

 

[bigpaulo]

To reduce fuel pump whine/noise, use Fuel Power. Will also lubricate injectors. A lubed system is a smooth system

I'm taking an educated guess here, because I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing anyways!

More viscous oil can result in a thicker oil wedge when lubricating hydrodynamically (the default... barrier lubrication is an edge case, we hope, in your and most engines, especially at idle). Thicker wedge -> less energy transferred from spinning shafts to stationary journals -> less engine noise.

There may also be some noise attenuation affect due to increased viscosity... sound is mechanical energy waves, and more viscous fluids attenuate (reduce) sound energy transmission.

There was a statistically significant difference in the noise of my engine when I went from Mobil1 0w30 to GC 0W-30... 10.3 cSt versus 12.2 cSt at 100 degrees C. So personally, I've experienced an engine noise difference that I would attribute to viscosity (noise difference was immediately noticeable, didn't take any plating of additives to hear a difference).

Currently, I'm running a blend that UOA'ed at 1000 miles at 11.3 cSt... and I'm happier... GC made my engine sluggish, this Pennzoil Platinum/M1 0W-40/VSOT mix is working well for me so far.

 

[georgeyew]

How about adding a second battery and running your stereo off of it and leaving the engine turned off (elimates the engine noise completely)?....

 

[burnout]

It's probably a rule that you need to leave your engine on.

 

[znamya]

quote:

---

Originally posted by bigpaulo:
To reduce fuel pump whine/noise, use Fuel Power. Will also lubricate injectors. A lubed system is a smooth system

I'm taking an educated guess here, because I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing anyways!

More viscous oil can result in a thicker oil wedge when lubricating hydrodynamically (the default... barrier lubrication is an edge case, we hope, in your and most engines, especially at idle). Thicker wedge -> less energy transferred from spinning shafts to stationary journals -> less engine noise.

There may also be some noise attenuation affect due to increased viscosity... sound is mechanical energy waves, and more viscous fluids attenuate (reduce) sound energy transmission.

There was a statistically significant difference in the noise of my engine when I went from Mobil1 0w30 to GC 0W-30... 10.3 cSt versus 12.2 cSt at 100 degrees C. So personally, I've experienced an engine noise difference that I would attribute to viscosity (noise difference was immediately noticeable, didn't take any plating of additives to hear a difference).

Currently, I'm running a blend that UOA'ed at 1000 miles at 11.3 cSt... and I'm happier... GC made my engine sluggish, this Pennzoil Platinum/M1 0W-40/VSOT mix is working well for me so far.

---

I am in the acoustics field of mechanical engineering. Let me tell you something, if there are 2 noise sources, one has sound pressure level(SPL) of 100db (your stereo for instance) and the other source has 60db of SPL, then the combined sound is also 100db. As a rule of thumb, if the SPL of sources differ by more than 10DB, then the combined SPL is the same as the higher source's SPL. So decreasing the engine sound will not effect anything because your ears does not hear it when the streo is on.

 

[goodvibes]

Active noise cancellation where you run an inverse noise signal through the speakers. Someone probably makes it.

 

[y_p_w]

quote:

---

Originally posted by goodvibes:
Active noise cancellation where you run an inverse noise signal through the speakers. Someone probably makes it.

---

I remember my speaker instructions included directions for polarity correctness. Place both speakers against each other with a low-bass music source. If the low-bass is reduced (cancelled), it's OK. If it increases, then one is out of polarity. Of course if both are incorrectly wired then it doesn't matter.

And znamya is certainly correct that a conserably louder sound source will tend to drown out a source 40 dB quieter. But two equally loud sound sources together will result in a ~3 dB increase.

 

[dustyjoe1]

Not to state the obvious, but did you wrap the fuel rails with tape or other sound deadining material? Most of the noise in my honda comes from the fuel rails.....

 

[bulwnkl]

I think the idea of quieting the engine noise is for quietness between tracks, during quiet passages, and for lack of disturbance/interference when playing the stereo at other than high volume.

I'd follow JHZR2's advice. Thicker oil might help, but if it's thick enough to slow the idle to the point that the computer "notices" and opens the throttle a crack to compensate (the way it does when the A/C compressor turns on at idle), you'll increase exhaust noise.

How long does the judging last? I'm thinking you want to avoid a situation where the cooling fans turn on. So, be sure the engine is cold when you drive up to the stand.

 

[Steve S]

Honda pilots have lots of road noise according to Consumer Report magazine. There are insulating and noise dampening material that can be installed to help with the noise. 10w/40 Redline or 15w/40 Amsoil may help quiet the noise somewhat . try Delo 400 or a like oil .

 

[Leo]

I'd try either Redline oil or maybe Torco's MPZ attitive. I remember the latter did quiet down my engine quite a bit!!!

 

[BenDarDunDat]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bugshu:
Ok Friends, I have a challenge for you.

Now the challenge for each of you is to present ideas where I can quiet the engine perhaps a further 10 db with oil and additive choices. There are people that literally spend $5,000 for an amplifier that lowers signal to noise ratios by 1% over $500 amplifiers. I think that I can sneak in my more "normal" system and by paying attention to engine noise and other factors can compete with them. Anyway, Ive had 4-5 experts tell me that its one of the best sounding cars in the country and I havent even begun to tap the wealth of knowledge that each of you brings to the table.

Ok, the challenge is to take an already quiet engine and reduce the noise by 10 db which should take 2-4 db of cockpit noise out of the car and give me a big advantage in a sq competition at car shows. 3 db might not seem like much but in a sound competition its absolutely HUGE !!!! Nobody on the SQ competition circuit actually worries much about engine noise and I think I can sneak in a secret advantage that is equally as effective as a $5000 amplifier or a $2500 set of speakers that are only slightly better than more reasonable priced equipment.

Advice here is needed !!!!!

Happy Motoring All,

Bugshu

---

TEN dB? 10?
Easy: 90% STP and 10% Rislone.

 

[XS650]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bugshu:
Ok Friends, I have a challenge for you.


Now the challenge for each of you is to present ideas where I can quiet the engine perhaps a further 10 db with oil and additive choices.

Bugshu

---

The only way you could accomplish that with oil and additives would be to run it while immersed in a vat of oil and additives.

[ May 19, 2005, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: XS650 ]

 

[Mitch Alsup]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bugshu:
Ok Friends, I have a challenge for you.

I put new speakers in my Honda Pilot. Not the real loud high dollar speakers but fairly good speakers that improved the sound of the car. Anyway, I took it to a guy that had qualified for Nationals in SPL competitions and he said that I should enter some shows and compete in the SQ category because it sounded really good. Anyway, unlike the SPL competitions which measure how loud your car gets the SQ competitions measure how good your car sounds as SQ stands for sound quality.

Now, I believe that there are two reasons that my pilot sounds good compared with others. The first is that there is a lot of glass relative to the size of the car and Im getting good reflections and ambience in the car. The acoustics are better than in most any other car. The second is that with the help of most of you the engine runs like silk and I have less engine noise than most. Im using Honda engine oil that is high in Moly and other additives with a Valvoline Silver synpower pack. Hey eventually I will go to synthetics but my first oil change was free from the dealer.

Now the challenge for each of you is to present ideas where I can quiet the engine perhaps a further 10 db with oil and additive choices. There are people that literally spend $5,000 for an amplifier that lowers signal to noise ratios by 1% over $500 amplifiers. I think that I can sneak in my more "normal" system and by paying attention to engine noise and other factors can compete with them. Anyway, Ive had 4-5 experts tell me that its one of the best sounding cars in the country and I havent even begun to tap the wealth of knowledge that each of you brings to the table.

Ok, the challenge is to take an already quiet engine and reduce the noise by 10 db which should take 2-4 db of cockpit noise out of the car and give me a big advantage in a sq competition at car shows. 3 db might not seem like much but in a sound competition its absolutely HUGE !!!! Nobody on the SQ competition circuit actually worries much about engine noise and I think I can sneak in a secret advantage that is equally as effective as a $5000 amplifier or a $2500 set of speakers that are only slightly better than more reasonable priced equipment.

Advice here is needed !!!!!

Happy Motoring All,

Bugshu

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