Hatred thread

[javacontour]

PS we see lots of this in the US vs Foreign car debates:

Quote:

Ad hominem circumstantial

Ad hominem circumstantial involves pointing out that someone is in circumstances such that he is disposed to take a particular position. Essentially, ad hominem circumstantial constitutes an attack on the bias of a person. The reason that this is fallacious in syllogistic logic is that pointing out that one's opponent is disposed to make a certain argument does not make the argument, from a logical point of view, any less credible; this overlaps with the genetic fallacy (an argument that a claim is incorrect due to its source).

On the other hand, where the person taking a position seeks to convince us by a claim of authority, or personal observation, observation of their circumstances may reduce the evidentiary weight of the claims, sometimes to zero.

 

[Audi Junkie]

I can say that there are things written on these threads that not all Members like to see pointed out. I can also say that it's wrong to conceal historical realities. Those two things cannot be reconciled on one forum.

 

[firemachine69]

Originally Posted By: 1sttruck
We're talking differing amounts of dirt here, but everyone's hands are still dirty.



BINGO.

Everyone, including us Canucks, have some dark matter in our past history. But hiding it will never do us any good.

 

[Cutehumor]

Isn't that the technique used? Specifically, it's the ad hominem abusive,

Quote:

Ad hominem abusive

Ad hominem abusive (also called argumentum ad personam) usually and most notoriously involves insulting or belittling one's opponent, but can also involve pointing out factual but ostensibly [censored] character flaws or actions which are irrelevant to the opponent's argument. This tactic is logically fallacious because insults and even true negative facts about the opponent's personal character have nothing to do with the logical merits of the opponent's arguments or assertions. This tactic is frequently employed as a propaganda tool among politicians who are attempting to influence the voter base in their favor through an appeal to emotion rather than by logical means, especially when their own position is logically weaker than their opponent's.



I see that technique used alot on here. When someone resorts to belittle you, that's when I know they have no leg to stand on, the insults start coming in. Very elementary schoolish

 

[digitalSniperX1]

Quite often, the motivations of those who make reference to "attrocities" committed by some group(s) are not introduced for the purpose of honest discussion or as a statement of historical fact, but rather to debase anyone who can be associated with that group.

However, more often than not, those who introduce these topics for these purposes almost universally fall under one of both of two categories:

(a) Can be easily associated with the group who is the subject of their attack.
(b) Share similarly evil ancestors and fail to realize they've "benefited" from those similar events they accuse others of having immorally been beneficiaries.


Another almost equally universal truth amongst these people are that they have no pure intentions at all, but seek only to destroy, not unlike those who committed the evil acts they use for ammunition in that destruction.

 

[Whitewolf]

It's not hatred (or political)to discuss historic fact or try to uncover through discussion what the facts really are. It is a form of hatred (in my opinion) and certainly political based censorship to try to prevent people from having those discussions. Let's face it there are unpleasant things throughout history (take for instance the Roman treatment of the Iceni). Does that mean that history should not be taught, discussed or debated?

 

[1sttruck]

"Isn't that the technique used? Specifically, it's the ad hominem abusive,"

I agree with you, I was just having some fun as accusing someone of using an ad hominem argument seems in a limited way to be using an ad hominem argument, as you're attacking the person and not the argument. It just seemed funny, at least for moment :^)

 

[Steve S]

We be p/c!

 

[1sttruck]

"Everyone, including us Canucks, have some dark matter in our past history. But hiding it will never do us any good."

We can only hope to have learned from it, to do better in the future, and to not tolerate it when we see it. In situations like this it's nice to be able to paraphrase the West Point code, something like 'A cadet will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do'. History should also teach us some humility, especially when we find ourselves judging others, but that should never prevent us from doing the right thing.

I've always been fascinated with WWII history as for me it best explained the world I came to know as I grew up. I think that the most important lesson regarding Germany is that such a horror could happen anywhere, which is why we need to be vigilant.

 

[Whitewolf]

Originally Posted By: 1sttruck
"Everyone, including us Canucks, have some dark matter in our past history. But hiding it will never do us any good."

We can only hope to have learned from it, to do better in the future, and to not tolerate it when we see it. In situations like this it's nice to be able to paraphrase the West Point code, something like 'A cadet will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do'. History should also teach us some humility, especially when we find ourselves judging others, but that should never prevent us from doing the right thing.

I've always been fascinated with WWII history as for me it best explained the world I came to know as I grew up. I think that the most important lesson regarding Germany is that such a horror could happen anywhere, which is why we need to be vigilant.


The study of history is fascinating and enlightening until, as Steve said, the P/C brigade get on the band wagon and start telling us what we can or cannot talk about. Does this P/C censorship attitude not provide a good example of why we should study past events and perhaps learn from them?

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: greenaccord02
Lets just censor and rewrite history because the truth of it is shameful...

How can we be expected to move forward if the "course of human events" has been made unclear due to nothing less than censorship? If we don't know the mistakes we've made in the past, how can we avoid them in the future?

I say keep the thread open and let the truth be heard.
"Hate thread" what a crock of [censored].

And if somebody wants to post one about America's atrocities that are not well known, I'd welcome it. Or at least not request it's censorship.


Totally agree.

 

[Audi Junkie]

Who said something like "if we forget history, we are cursed to repeat it"?

 

[MarkC]

George Santayana.

 

[mechtech2]

Revisionist history is unacceptable to me.
The truth is acceptable.
Calling it hatred, or having any other 'race card' mentality when you have to face historical facts, is what repulses me.

 

[Gary Allan]

The thing we all must realize is that we're all victims of revisionist history. As I said in the other thread, the victor writes the history. I doubt that it's accurate in untidy details.

That is, while revisionist history can down play the untidy reality of others (whomever "the other" may be)...a revision of one's own history would probably be discounted just due to the harsh reality that one would rather not discuss.

It's very hard to escape it on one end or the other. If you see what I mean

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
The thing we all must realize is that we're all victims of revisionist history. As I said in the other thread, the victor writes the history. I doubt that it's accurate in untidy details.

That is, while revisionist history can down play the untidy reality of others (whomever "the other" may be)...a revision of one's own history would probably be discounted just due to the harsh reality that one would rather not discuss.

It's very hard to escape it on one end or the other. If you see what I mean

That's why it's better to view history as a collective rather than viewing any one source as factual.

I have a customer who was three when WWII broke out. He is German. His account of what took place is markedly different from what you read. But of course his take is jaded as well....

 

[MarkC]

He was also 3 years old.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: MarkC
He was also 3 years old.


Well, that's what he says

He knows a whole lot more in the way of 1st-hand info than what somebody who would have been 10 when the war ended should.....

 

[kingrob]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
The thing we all must realize is that we're all victims of revisionist history. As I said in the other thread, the victor writes the history. I doubt that it's accurate in untidy details.

That is, while revisionist history can down play the untidy reality of others (whomever "the other" may be)...a revision of one's own history would probably be discounted just due to the harsh reality that one would rather not discuss.

It's very hard to escape it on one end or the other. If you see what I mean

You act as though this was ancient history. It happened in (some of) our lifetimes. I can understand revisionist history in regards to something that happened centuries ago, but not something this recent.

"The Victor writes the history" is the truth in regards to ancient civilizations, not so in the age of information that started roughly around the time of the American Civil War- or, the War of Northern Aggression as it was known in the South at the time. See? A different insight than what we were taught in school, but we're not so jaded as to turn a blind eye to the wrongdoings committed by both sides.

 

[Gary Allan]

How old are you, kingrob? My history books didn't depict anything near the currently disclosed untidy details of many things. We were fighting a Cold War when they were written and were designed to bolster the notion that we were always the good guys.

Only radical malcontents challenged the curriculum for its truth. Only a radical opposed the Vietnam War.

Again, I don't discount ANYTHING (read that as many times as needed to acknowledge it). If you think propaganda ended with mass media and global real time depictions ..I have some property in various places for bona fide bargain prices.

Are you mori's ?th St. sniper? Should we haul him in and execute him? How about just nuking Japan again..since we didn't do enough damage the first time to "pay them back"??

What do you suggest to satisfy your thirst? How long must you remind the descendants of the acts of their parents ..and hold THEM accountable for those acts? Shall we assign them honorary sin eater status?