GTL base stocks better than PAO/POE?

[Solarent]

Originally Posted By: TXCarGeek
So what oils on the market have a nice overall balance between all these numbers?

I see that PU has a low noack which is good for preventing build up on DI engines but CATERHAM, you mention that PU's VI isn't impressive so I am just curious which oil has the best overall balance between the values.


I think if any of us knew the answer to this question, then this site wouldn't be nearly as entertaining to read.

My approach to choosing the "best" engine oil is this:

1-Start with what the manufacturer recommends
2-Determine your desired maintenance schedule based on operating conditions and what makes sense for you
3-Use UOA to determine if the manufacturer recommendation works with your schedule. Use the trend you see in your UOA results to see if what you are doing is working or if you need to change something.
4-Optimize and repeat.

For example: my wife drives a 2008 BMW 325i, we use the factory recommended Castrol High Performance from the dealer. We use a 18 000 km (10k mile) OCI rather than the 24 000 km. This is because for the way she drives the car, UOA showed wear metals and oil oxidation higher than I am comfortable with at the 24 000 mark.
Could I use another oil (which would possibly be cheaper) and reach that 24 000 mark? probably, but she only drives 6000 km each year, so doing a change once every 2-3 years is fine with me.

Pick the oil that works best for your car in your situation. Don't let your oil dictate your maintenance decisions.

 

[Solarent]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Solarent
PAO natural VI can be a range, typically 120-170.

I don't know of a light PAO or ester base stock that has a VI over 150. There are some very heavy PAOs with KV100 of 65cSt and higher with 200+ VIs but these obviously are too heavy to be used as base oils to formulate motor oil, thought they may be used as VMs in very low doses.


Yes, and yes.

 

[Art_Vandelay]

Originally Posted By: Solarent

This is why all the different VI improvers (I include all compounds that can raise a finished oils' VI in this) are so important to the final formulation.


What about German Castrol 0W-30? It's been stated here that there are no VI improvers in it. What kind of formulation would make that possible?

 

[buster]

Quote:
There is no single "best oil" for every application.
First specify the application and then we can narrow down what available motor oils have the most attractive features.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
Originally Posted By: Solarent

This is why all the different VI improvers (I include all compounds that can raise a finished oils' VI in this) are so important to the final formulation.


What about German Castrol 0W-30? It's been stated here that there are no VI improvers in it. What kind of formulation would make that possible?

With a VI of only 166 it is possibly that it doesn't contain much in the way of polymer VIIs but I suspect it does use a "normal" amount since it is not totally shear stable unlike some oils like Red Line.

 

[Solarent]

Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
Originally Posted By: Solarent

This is why all the different VI improvers (I include all compounds that can raise a finished oils' VI in this) are so important to the final formulation.


What about German Castrol 0W-30? It's been stated here that there are no VI improvers in it. What kind of formulation would make that possible?


There are many different ways to get from the natural VI of the base stock to the finished viscosity characteristics of a fully formulated oil. [perhaps Molakule would like to chime in with some more specific examples]

I can't speak to the GC 0w30 formulation specifically, but if I were to venture a guess, using a blend of heavier, high VI base stocks, or some of the new viscosity modifiers that are not polymer based could be an option. I don't know anyone who can say conclusively that a finished oil has absolutely no Viscosity modifiers in it except maybe the team who made the formula. It also depends on what your definition of VI improvers are too I suppose. (in my books, any viscosity modifier or compound you use to increase the VI counts as a VI improver - some other people only count the traditional polymers)


To point this thread back to the original post, I would love to see what could be done with more GTL base stocks. Too bad Shell isn't willing to share their supply yet.

 

[Solarent]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

With a VI of only 166 it is possibly that it doesn't contain much in the way of polymer VIIs but I suspect it does use a "normal" amount since it is not totally shear stable unlike some oils like Red Line.


+1 Emphasis on "only 166".... CATERHAM thinks that a VI of 166 is much too low for his engines...

 

[901Memphis]

Check this link out if you want to compare virgin vi.

http://pqiamerica.com/March2013PCMO/Marchsyntheticsallfinal.html

If you ask me and from this data you can see Pennzoil Platinum is a pretty good value for the money when you consider it's robust additive pack, slightly higher vi, and everything else.

It doesn't have as low a NOACK as PU, but it's acceptable and more readily available across the country.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Solarent
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

With a VI of only 166 it is possibly that it doesn't contain much in the way of polymer VIIs but I suspect it does use a "normal" amount since it is not totally shear stable unlike some oils like Red Line.


+1 Emphasis on "only 166".... CATERHAM thinks that a VI of 166 is much too low for his engines...

You're right. Like most I have used GC in the past but much prefer the lighter on start-up PAO based M1 SM 0W-40 with it's 187 VI.
Having said that I can see certain summer time applications in the States where GC could be slightly preferable to M1 SN 0W-40 with it's HTHSV of 3.85cP if you want a somewhat lighter oil at operating temp's. But then my better instinct would take hold and I'd realize I could still use the heavier, higher VI (and cheaper) M1 SN 0W-40 but just add some TGMO 0W-20 to lighten it up while increasing the VI to over 190; a win-win solution.

 

[TXCarGeek]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Solarent
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

With a VI of only 166 it is possibly that it doesn't contain much in the way of polymer VIIs but I suspect it does use a "normal" amount since it is not totally shear stable unlike some oils like Red Line.


+1 Emphasis on "only 166".... CATERHAM thinks that a VI of 166 is much too low for his engines...

You're right. Like most I have used GC in the past but much prefer the lighter on start-up PAO based M1 SM 0W-40 with it's 187 VI.
Having said that I can see certain summer time applications in the States where GC could be slightly preferable to M1 SN 0W-40 with it's HTHSV of 3.85cP if you want a somewhat lighter oil at operating temp's. But then my better instinct would take hold and I'd realize I could still use the heavier, higher VI (and cheaper) M1 SN 0W-40 but just add some TGMO 0W-20 to lighten it up while increasing the VI to over 190; a win-win solution.


There's two different M1 0W-40s? I thought the latest (SN) was all we could get...?

 

[901Memphis]

Finding mobil 1 0w40 SM would require finding old stock. They don't currently produce SM since it's obsolete but many auto parts stores may Carry it. Just look on the back of the bottle to see which API rating it is.

 

[BerndV]

I see no reason to recommend something that is no longer produced.

 

[TXCarGeek]

Originally Posted By: BerndV
I see no reason to recommend something that is no longer produced.


Yes, it makes things very confusing for new guys like me.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: TXCarGeek
Originally Posted By: BerndV
I see no reason to recommend something that is no longer produced.


Yes, it makes things very confusing for new guys like me.


In Canada we still only get the old SM version of the product.

 

[901Memphis]

The reason why it's recommended is the formula is different from SM to SN and SM has a more desirable formula. It's not a bad idea to stock up on something that's going to disappear. Kinda like hostess products eh?

 

[regal55]

The biggest advantage to GTL and even GrpIII over true synthetics is that seals and gaskets should last longer. A 200k mile car with a ruined rear main seal is a totaled car. It doesn't matter how many di-ester seal "conditiners" are added to a PAO/POE, gasket and seal material scientists target petroleum oil today as they have they last 100 years.

PAO/POE synthetic basestocks are for providing protection for a day at the track not 5+ years of continuous contact to engine seals and gaskets. Race engines (and some German performance engines) aren't meant to last years of continuous service without a teardown.

This is the biggest reason GTL is so refreshing IMO, a super oil that is still basically a petroleum base. Just wish Walmart still sold PU.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
The biggest advantage to GTL and even GrpIII over true synthetics is that seals and gaskets should last longer. A 200k mile car with a ruined rear main seal is a totaled car. It doesn't matter how many di-ester seal "conditiners" are added to a PAO/POE, gasket and seal material scientists target petroleum oil today as they have they last 100 years.

PAO/POE synthetic basestocks are for providing protection for a day at the track not 5+ years of continuous contact to engine seals and gaskets.


And your comment is based on what SAE or STLE papers?

 

[richport29]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: TXCarGeek
Originally Posted By: BerndV
I see no reason to recommend something that is no longer produced.


Yes, it makes things very confusing for new guys like me.


In Canada we still only get the old SM version of the product.


The case I got from Napa was SN..

 

[Mathson]

Originally Posted By: Solarent
It's hard for anyone (including oil formulators) to have a real opinion on GTL base stocks being better. That is because Shell is the only one making them and are using them exclusively for internal use. (No one can buy GTL on the open market).


This in untrue. Shell has opened the market.

 

[Mathson]

..And here in Finland we just got a couple new diesel fuels from the company called ST1. The new thing being the base component manufactured by Shell from natural gas.