Opinions on GTL base stocks being equivalent or even superior to PAO/POE?
GTL base stocks better than PAO/POE?
- Thread starter BerndV
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I don't think any are good all by themselves. Can you be more specific about what characteristic you're interested in?
It's hard for anyone (including oil formulators) to have a real opinion on GTL base stocks being better. That is because Shell is the only one making them and are using them exclusively for internal use. (No one can buy GTL on the open market).
With the magnitude of information available, Group III GTL base stocks appear just as good as Group IV PAO, in some cases even better.
However if you were to ask me if there were Group III bases (not GTL) that are as good or better than PAO/POE then I would also say yes.
Not all PAO's are of the same quality and it is possible to have a high end Gr III base perform better than a PAO alternative in some synthetic oil formulations.
With the magnitude of information available, Group III GTL base stocks appear just as good as Group IV PAO, in some cases even better.
However if you were to ask me if there were Group III bases (not GTL) that are as good or better than PAO/POE then I would also say yes.
Not all PAO's are of the same quality and it is possible to have a high end Gr III base perform better than a PAO alternative in some synthetic oil formulations.
Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
I don't think any are good all by themselves. Can you be more specific about what characteristic you're interested in?
NOACK, lubricity, solvency, cold temperature properties, high temperature deposit formation, etc.
I don't think any are good all by themselves. Can you be more specific about what characteristic you're interested in?
NOACK, lubricity, solvency, cold temperature properties, high temperature deposit formation, etc.
Pennzoil Ultra (API SN version) boasts a 6% NOACK, which is one of the lowest I've seen. Everyone else seems to be at 7%+.
Yes low NOACK percentages is a main plus of GTL oils but again it is only one aspect of an oil.
Since it is only Shell that is using GTL base oils we have to judge the finished product as a whole and quite frankly I've been disappointed in what they have to offer so far.
They haven't reformulated their 0W-40 yet using GTL base oils but if they are going to follow the same trend of producing a lower VI version I won't be that impressed.
Since it is only Shell that is using GTL base oils we have to judge the finished product as a whole and quite frankly I've been disappointed in what they have to offer so far.
They haven't reformulated their 0W-40 yet using GTL base oils but if they are going to follow the same trend of producing a lower VI version I won't be that impressed.
MolaKule
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As Solarent stated, we formulators haven't been able to sample GTL as yet but according to their technical papers, it should be a good GroupIII+ oil.
Most oils, except for the botique oils, are composed of a mix of GroupIII, PAO, and POE with some di-esters for seal conditioning, so don't get hung up on one base oil.
Most oils, except for the botique oils, are composed of a mix of GroupIII, PAO, and POE with some di-esters for seal conditioning, so don't get hung up on one base oil.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Yes low NOACK percentages is a main plus of GTL oils but again it is only one aspect of an oil.
Since it is only Shell that is using GTL base oils we have to judge the finished product as a whole and quite frankly I've been disappointed in what they have to offer so far.
They haven't reformulated their 0W-40 yet using GTL base oils but if they are going to follow the same trend of producing a lower VI version I won't be that impressed.
Why are higher VIs preferable? I've been meaning to ask this.
Yes low NOACK percentages is a main plus of GTL oils but again it is only one aspect of an oil.
Since it is only Shell that is using GTL base oils we have to judge the finished product as a whole and quite frankly I've been disappointed in what they have to offer so far.
They haven't reformulated their 0W-40 yet using GTL base oils but if they are going to follow the same trend of producing a lower VI version I won't be that impressed.
Why are higher VIs preferable? I've been meaning to ask this.
A high VI means the oil will resist viscosity changes over the entire temperature range. That translates to better protection when cold, hot, and everything inbetween.
The higher the Viscosity Index, the less the oil viscosity will change with increasing temperature. Therefore, if two oils are formulated to have 10cSt viscosity at 100C, the oil with the higher VI will have lower viscosity at temperatures below that. The lower viscosity at ambient startup temperatures, and during warmup, means that the oil pump will absorb less power from the engine to pump the oil through the engine, saving a bit of fuel.
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Most oils, except for the botique oils, are composed of a mix of GroupIII, PAO, and POE with some di-esters for seal conditioning, so don't get hung up on one base oil.
I wish more people would pay attention when statements like this are made. It seems that the vast majority of consumers (not just BITOG types) get hung up on some little part of the oil which is in fact a rather complex formulation.
Focusing on a single base oil, or a single additive ingredient or attribute of a finished oil is silly. It takes the whole package to do the job.
Most oils, except for the botique oils, are composed of a mix of GroupIII, PAO, and POE with some di-esters for seal conditioning, so don't get hung up on one base oil.
I wish more people would pay attention when statements like this are made. It seems that the vast majority of consumers (not just BITOG types) get hung up on some little part of the oil which is in fact a rather complex formulation.
Focusing on a single base oil, or a single additive ingredient or attribute of a finished oil is silly. It takes the whole package to do the job.
Originally Posted By: TXCarGeek
Why are higher VIs preferable? I've been meaning to ask this.
When it comes to base oils, the only difference between a conventional oil (Group II) and a synthetic oil (Group III) is the natural VI; anything over 120 is classed as Group III which is sold as synthetic.
There is a big difference between the natural VI of a base oil, and the VI of a finished oil. Finished oils can have a wide range of VI resulting from the use of viscosity index improvers, pour point depressants and a mixture of different types of base oils.
Why are higher VIs preferable? I've been meaning to ask this.
When it comes to base oils, the only difference between a conventional oil (Group II) and a synthetic oil (Group III) is the natural VI; anything over 120 is classed as Group III which is sold as synthetic.
There is a big difference between the natural VI of a base oil, and the VI of a finished oil. Finished oils can have a wide range of VI resulting from the use of viscosity index improvers, pour point depressants and a mixture of different types of base oils.
Originally Posted By: Solarent
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Most oils, except for the botique oils, are composed of a mix of GroupIII, PAO, and POE with some di-esters for seal conditioning, so don't get hung up on one base oil.
I wish more people would pay attention when statements like this are made. It seems that the vast majority of consumers (not just BITOG types) get hung up on some little part of the oil which is in fact a rather complex formulation.
Focusing on a single base oil, or a single additive ingredient or attribute of a finished oil is silly. It takes the whole package to do the job.
+1
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Most oils, except for the botique oils, are composed of a mix of GroupIII, PAO, and POE with some di-esters for seal conditioning, so don't get hung up on one base oil.
I wish more people would pay attention when statements like this are made. It seems that the vast majority of consumers (not just BITOG types) get hung up on some little part of the oil which is in fact a rather complex formulation.
Focusing on a single base oil, or a single additive ingredient or attribute of a finished oil is silly. It takes the whole package to do the job.
+1
Originally Posted By: Solarent
Originally Posted By: TXCarGeek
Why are higher VIs preferable? I've been meaning to ask this.
When it comes to base oils, the only difference between a conventional oil (Group II) and a synthetic oil (Group III) is the natural VI; anything over 120 is classed as Group III which is sold as synthetic.
There is a big difference between the natural VI of a base oil, and the VI of a finished oil. Finished oils can have a wide range of VI resulting from the use of viscosity index improvers, pour point depressants and a mixture of different types of base oils.
As well as the VI increasing affect of the polymer based dispersants as well as non polymer based high VI VMs.
The highest base oil VIs are in the 140-150 range from light to heavier base oils. But we have finished oils with VIs in the 160s and 170s that claim to use no VIIs.
Originally Posted By: TXCarGeek
Why are higher VIs preferable? I've been meaning to ask this.
When it comes to base oils, the only difference between a conventional oil (Group II) and a synthetic oil (Group III) is the natural VI; anything over 120 is classed as Group III which is sold as synthetic.
There is a big difference between the natural VI of a base oil, and the VI of a finished oil. Finished oils can have a wide range of VI resulting from the use of viscosity index improvers, pour point depressants and a mixture of different types of base oils.
As well as the VI increasing affect of the polymer based dispersants as well as non polymer based high VI VMs.
The highest base oil VIs are in the 140-150 range from light to heavier base oils. But we have finished oils with VIs in the 160s and 170s that claim to use no VIIs.
Originally Posted By: Solarent
When it comes to base oils, the only difference between a conventional oil (Group II) and a synthetic oil (Group III) is the natural VI; anything over 120 is classed as Group III which is sold as synthetic.
What was the natural viscosity index of PAO (Group IV)?
When it comes to base oils, the only difference between a conventional oil (Group II) and a synthetic oil (Group III) is the natural VI; anything over 120 is classed as Group III which is sold as synthetic.
What was the natural viscosity index of PAO (Group IV)?
Originally Posted By: buster
Originally Posted By: Solarent
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Most oils, except for the botique oils, are composed of a mix of GroupIII, PAO, and POE with some di-esters for seal conditioning, so don't get hung up on one base oil.
I wish more people would pay attention when statements like this are made. It seems that the vast majority of consumers (not just BITOG types) get hung up on some little part of the oil which is in fact a rather complex formulation.
Focusing on a single base oil, or a single additive ingredient or attribute of a finished oil is silly. It takes the whole package to do the job.
+1
This is all great and fine, but on THIS site, when one finds that oil which has ALL of the above characteristics (save for CATERHAM's stratospheric VI levels
), they are labelled as "fools" for actually using it, due to the cost/"need" factor.
Originally Posted By: Solarent
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Most oils, except for the botique oils, are composed of a mix of GroupIII, PAO, and POE with some di-esters for seal conditioning, so don't get hung up on one base oil.
I wish more people would pay attention when statements like this are made. It seems that the vast majority of consumers (not just BITOG types) get hung up on some little part of the oil which is in fact a rather complex formulation.
Focusing on a single base oil, or a single additive ingredient or attribute of a finished oil is silly. It takes the whole package to do the job.
+1
This is all great and fine, but on THIS site, when one finds that oil which has ALL of the above characteristics (save for CATERHAM's stratospheric VI levels
So what oils on the market have a nice overall balance between all these numbers?
I see that PU has a low noack which is good for preventing build up on DI engines but CATERHAM, you mention that PU's VI isn't impressive so I am just curious which oil has the best overall balance between the values.
I see that PU has a low noack which is good for preventing build up on DI engines but CATERHAM, you mention that PU's VI isn't impressive so I am just curious which oil has the best overall balance between the values.
PAO natural VI can be a range, typically 120-170. I've never seen one below 120, but I've heard that they exist.
This is why all the different VI improvers (I include all compounds that can raise a finished oils' VI in this) are so important to the final formulation. As a general rule it's good to start with a base that is close to the viscosity properties you want in the finished fluids, but that's not always practical.
This is why all the different VI improvers (I include all compounds that can raise a finished oils' VI in this) are so important to the final formulation. As a general rule it's good to start with a base that is close to the viscosity properties you want in the finished fluids, but that's not always practical.
Originally Posted By: TXCarGeek
I see that PU has a low noack which is good for preventing build up on DI engines
That is not necessarily true, low SAPS oils are likely best in preventing intake tract build-up or oils with low TOEST test results.
There is no single "best oil" for every application.
First specify the application and then we can narrow down what available motor oils have the most attractive features.
I see that PU has a low noack which is good for preventing build up on DI engines
That is not necessarily true, low SAPS oils are likely best in preventing intake tract build-up or oils with low TOEST test results.
There is no single "best oil" for every application.
First specify the application and then we can narrow down what available motor oils have the most attractive features.
Originally Posted By: Solarent
PAO natural VI can be a range, typically 120-170.
I don't know of a light PAO or ester base stock that has a VI over 150. There are some very heavy PAOs with KV100 of 65cSt and higher with 200+ VIs but these obviously are too heavy to be used as base oils to formulate motor oil, thought they may be used as VMs in very low doses.
PAO natural VI can be a range, typically 120-170.
I don't know of a light PAO or ester base stock that has a VI over 150. There are some very heavy PAOs with KV100 of 65cSt and higher with 200+ VIs but these obviously are too heavy to be used as base oils to formulate motor oil, thought they may be used as VMs in very low doses.
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