Goodbye Middle Class

[Spyder7]

Originally Posted By: genynnc
I was generalizing about the ability to gain GOOD paying jobs vs. the ability to make an average or decent wage. Every career path provides value to society or that career path wouldn't exist. You can't sit there and tell me that a college graduate with an nursing degree is going to start below or at the same level as a graduate with a liberal arts degree. Obviously without Math we wouldn't have machinists, motorsports, trading, etc... I never said you only need 5 career venues or even 10,000, that's rediculous. But I digress because we are getting a bit off the ranch.


I replied to a line that equated liberal arts with basket weaving. I conceded that the liberal arts grad is going to face a more uphill struggle to break into their field, then say a nursing grad who has a ready made profession to enter when she graduates.

I also stated, from my own experience and POV, that it is not as black and white as your post implied it to be. Its not a "given" that a liberal arts grad will be making 25k for their first 10 years. That's a very sweeping generalization, and therefore an obviously flawed one.

You ignored the other end of the income line too: nursing professions and the like, while offering a good up front salary, also have their own ceiling. Once you hit the cap, that's as far as your going unless you go back to school and start over.

On the liberal arts side, there is no such cap because it has its own built in flexibility and adaptability. Its a trade off. Its not black and white or cut and dry as you portrayed it to be. Again, I do concede that a liberal arts student faces a more uphill climb after graduating than say nursing grad; but it has its own merits of that offset the trade off, and for those willing to make the trade off, there is nothing wrong with a liberal arts path, and it is nothing like "basket weaving" in any comparison that can be made. There is none.

-Spyder

 

[genynnc]

Originally Posted By: ZZman

Not everyone is cut out for college. Because of upbringing, finances, education, lack of drive etc...

Good paying blue collar jobs helped a large portion of the population to attain part of the American dream. Enough to keep them fairly content.

We have to remember that all members of working society play an important roll. Not everyone can be doctors, lawyers, wall street types etc....There are other just as important "lower class" jobs that keep society running smoothly and keeps us happy by providing services we all enjoy and need.

Should they not also deserve a decent living?

ZZ, you must have been replying at the same time as I, if not see above.

Should ALL career choices be rewarded 'a decent living'? The answer is NO. You should earn what someone is willing to pay you (from some of the profit that your employer has made from the end prodct/service you help provide/sale) based on the value it/ you provide to society.

 

[dwendt44]

Some of these wacky right wing opinions and comments are almost copy and paste from across the internet. I've read them, almost word for word, on other forums and message boards.

I doubt anyone lives in a trailer rent free. Either the trailer is a rental or the lot it sits on, is rented. Perhaps both.

Even so, the heat is generally NOT included. So the renter pays the gas bill.

Complaining about the ecological impact must be some kind of joke. Compare the use of a little too much heat to the waste of resources by the rich. The Hummers, the Cadillacs, the Mc Mansions and the yachts use a lot more energy than poor folks who have their thermostat turned a bit to high.

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: Spyder7
... drastic steps such as the elimination of the system will not just make the problem go away. It'll still exist, it'll just morph to take on another form. Most likely in the way of crime.


Big government is always telling us that if we refuse to continue to feed its insatiable appetite for money, then bad things are bound to happen to us.

I am weary of the scare tactic card being played whenever there is any call to change the status quo, that clearly is not working very well from the average joe perspective.

I think we should call the bluff. Get rid of the system, and start over. Maybe some people will turn to crime. Those people can be dealt with at that time. Maybe some will take their life in a different direction.

And big business should be taken off the dole as well. No reason it should not receive the same extreme scrutiny that individuals should get.

 

[genynnc]

Originally Posted By: Spyder7
Originally Posted By: genynnc
I was generalizing about the ability to gain GOOD paying jobs vs. the ability to make an average or decent wage. Every career path provides value to society or that career path wouldn't exist. You can't sit there and tell me that a college graduate with an nursing degree is going to start below or at the same level as a graduate with a liberal arts degree. Obviously without Math we wouldn't have machinists, motorsports, trading, etc... I never said you only need 5 career venues or even 10,000, that's rediculous. But I digress because we are getting a bit off the ranch.


I replied to a line that equated liberal arts with basket weaving. I conceded that the liberal arts grad is going to face a more uphill struggle to break into their field, then say a nursing grad who has a ready made profession to enter when she graduates.

I also stated, from my own experience and POV, that it is not as black and white as your post implied it to be. Its not a "given" that a liberal arts grad will be making 25k for their first 10 years. That's a very sweeping generalization, and therefore an obviously flawed one.

You ignored the other end of the income line too: nursing professions and the like, while offering a good up front salary, also have their own ceiling. Once you hit the cap, that's as far as your going unless you go back to school and start over.

On the liberal arts side, there is no such cap because it has its own built in flexibility and adaptability. Its a trade off. Its not black and white or cut and dry as you portrayed it to be. Again, I do concede that a liberal arts student faces a more uphill climb after graduating than say nursing grad; but it has its own merits of that offset the trade off, and for those willing to make the trade off, there is nothing wrong with a liberal arts path, and it is nothing like "basket weaving" in any comparison that can be made. There is none.

-Spyder


That's fine but I didn't correlate liberal arts with under water basket weaving. If I did, then a business administration degree would be equated as well, which isn't. Forums are certainly hard to interpret sometimes and I'll chalk up your assumption to that.

BTW- I graduated with a Bachelor's in buisiness admin., so if I was really poking fun or putting down liberal arts, then I'm just doing the same to myself.

 

[Spyder7]

Originally Posted By: Win


Big government is always telling us that if we refuse to continue to feed its insatiable appetite for money, then bad things are bound to happen to us.

I am weary of the scare tactic card being played whenever there is any call to change the status quo, that clearly is not working very well from the average joe perspective.


I agree.

Quote:

I think we should call the bluff. Get rid of the system, and start over. Maybe some people will turn to crime. Those people can be dealt with at that time. Maybe some will take their life in a different direction.


Here I disagree. Sort of. We don't know what would happen if they were taken off, neither does government. Government, and its people, tend to prefer a measure of certainty and an aversion to risks where the consequences cannot be seen. Therefore its in their interest to maintain the status quo. Maybe for that reason it might be nice to see just what would happen if it were changed. "Maybe" is the term I have to go with, because whatever the consequences, once its done there's no putting the genie back in the bottle - not if it leads to revolt or some other drastic change.

Quote:
And big business should be taken off the dole as well. No reason it should not receive the same extreme scrutiny that individuals should get.


Here I agree again. In fact, whatever measure of scrutiny Joe and Jane Welfare receive for their handout, I would bet corporations receive less for much, much larger hand outs.

In my view, both ends of the scale are broken and in need of major reform. At the personal level, this means more scrutiny and converting a hand out, that not only makes welfare too often a lifetime prospect, but also one that is handed on through generations, into a "hand up" that is aimed at making them productive members of society again. I don't see a reason why this can't be done; I do see ways it could be done and every reason why its in all of our best interests - the poor included - for it to be done.

And no free lunches for corporations. Want a tax break or subsidy? What are you preferred to offer in return for it? No tangible benefits that are at least equal to the cut or subsidy, no breaks. And if they're going to ship their manufacturing overseas, there should be a penalty for that too: you can do it, but we're applying a tariff to what comes back. Then take that money and use it to subsidize (or provide tax cuts) to those businesses who provide tangible benefits in return for the breaks - like domestic job creation. Or building a school. Something.

Attack the problems with reforms on both ends and prosperity - and the middle class - will return.

-Spyder

 

[Ursae_Majoris]

Originally Posted By: ZZman

Can the cycle be broken? Sure. Is it easy....debatable.

Not everyone is cut out for college. Because of upbringing, finances, education, lack of drive etc...

We have to remember that all members of working society play an important roll. Not everyone can be doctors, lawyers, wall street types etc....There are other just as important "lower class" jobs that keep society running smoothly and keeps us happy by providing services we all enjoy and need.

Should they not also deserve a decent living?



They deserve what they earn. Why do you want them to be stuck in that vicious cycle?
When I came to US, I had $20 in my pocket. I have 3 college degrees now (one advanced), never had any school debt (paid as went to school, even though it took longer for me to finish it). Put my time in working a 70+ hours a week SALARIED job (and working on my Master's at the same time).

My family is on the budget. General prices started going up, we went to basic $25 a month cable, downgraded internet connection. We do not buy things, unless we have money in the budget. Generic does just fine.
Ohh, we do not eat anything with HFCS (I am allergic to it), but it still does not break our bank, so, please do not blame child obesity on the unavailability of lower-priced healthy foods.

If I made it in the US, anybody can. We need to stop enabling poor to continue to be poor.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: dwendt44


Even so, the heat is generally NOT included. So the renter pays the gas bill.



Well, there you go. Verified my thoughts.

For all the "green" movement that is so popular (not stating good or bad here), all the pitches on TV, yes that same TV that these people get and watch when on a budget and/or government assistance... Youre telling me that they are oblivious to the cause and effect of pumping the heat too high?

That's laughable.

The issue is that they are either oblivious, stupid, or dont care. Any one of those equals poor financial choices which could be EASILY averted and improve, at least in time, the financial position of the people. If Im poor, dont you think the $50 I save on the gas bill will have a BIGGER effect than on someone who is not??!? All the more reason to make sure they are aware and making the right choices, isnt it? The fact that these things have LESS of an effect on HIGHER wage earners is the whole basis for the progressive tax system. Are you going to imply that what's good for the goose isnt good for the gander??!?

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: Ursae_Majoris

They deserve what they earn. Why do you want them to be stuck in that vicious cycle?
When I came to US, I had $20 in my pocket. I have 3 college degrees now (one advanced), never had any school debt (paid as went to school, even though it took longer for me to finish it). Put my time in working a 70+ hours a week SALARIED job (and working on my Master's at the same time).


Try this again today, and see if you really can come with $20 and get 3 college degree by working full time and do that while having a roof above your head.

If you are very lucky you can do it with 1 part time job and 1 degree stretched out over a few years, claiming that just because you were born in the right time in the right economy and therefore everyone in a recession can do it, I'm not convinced.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: ZZman

If you are raised in a low income/low expectation environment it is hard to see much beyond that. ... If you are raised in a high income/high expectation environment like by white collar or professional parents it is easier to attain the education and opportunities you need to get ahead. You had good examples that shaped your thinking.

...

We have to remember that all members of working society play an important roll. Not everyone can be doctors, lawyers, wall street types etc....There are other just as important "lower class" jobs that keep society running smoothly and keeps us happy by providing services we all enjoy and need.

Should they not also deserve a decent living?



My points earlier about Booker T Washington holds true.

Youre telling me that if a freed slave could come up with the beneficial insight to mankind as shown here:

http://thinkexist.com/quotes/booker_t._washington/

That someone who has free schooling, internet, tv, etc., etc as in modern society can't come up with a reasonable ethic?

Now keep in mind that this is NOT a racial commentary. But I found the following write-up at a site which didnt seem safe to link to at BITOG, but had a nice little comment:

Quote:
Washington believed in hard work and self-help. He believed blacks would gain the acceptance they desired through improving their skills and proving themselves through their labors. Washington was a former slave and self-made success. He once walked 80 miles to enroll at the Hampton Institute in Virginia and supported himself by working as a janitor. He later became a teacher at Hampton and then principal. He was even chosen to be principal over a less qualified white man.

After his 1895 speech, white politicians were more than willing to support Washington, but he also had many critics. His conservative views led to alienation from the many black activists who felt the whites should be doing far more to give them retribution for the slavery of the past. Ultimately, Washington’s views were rejected by most of the twentieth-century civil rights movement. He longed for equality also, but believed hard work and education would earn far more respect than protests and speeches.


Now take white and black out of it, because society today is purple or tan... but think about the words and how what Booker did is a prime example of what had made America great then and now.

Note his thought process - hard work and education would earn far more respect than protests and speeches.

We live in a world of information overload. The only reason people stay in their position (to a point, nobody is going to be a billionaire overnight) is because they LOVE being there. With enough drive, people certainly can make sufficient strides, in this day and age to move VERY far up in society. Its not like there are NO jobs available. There are available spots all across the scientific and technical community.

But poor choices, made because people don't care is the issue. It IS the cell phone, the cable TV, the heat at 74.

So to respond to the second part of the commentary, dont they deserve a decent wage... They surely do. And they surely get it. Work at McDonalds for $7.25 an hour and over the standard 2087hr man-year, you bring in $15130. That's above the poverty line for a family of two from here:

http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/11poverty.shtml

Does it mean it will go far? Absolutely not! But it means that someone earning $20/hr, roughly $40k/yr is WELL above the poverty line. So define decent wage? Does this mean a roof over your head and nutritious food in the stomach? If so, it is doable. If it is supposed to mean 20 MPG car an cell and cable and 74 in the winter and 65 in the summer, perhaps we have a little bit of a discrepancy.

It may mean discomfort and a lot of hard work to move from those conditions, but hard work is what it takes. Settle into the modern "I deserve it" mindset, and the work that is being performed goes nowhere but to the marketers and make them rich.

A little more Dave Ramsey, a little less MTV, IMO.

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: dwendt44
... Compare the use of a little too much heat to the waste of resources by the rich. The Hummers, the Cadillacs, the Mc Mansions and the yachts use a lot more energy than poor folks who have their thermostat turned a bit to high.


Uh, OK. Rich people waste their own money, that's their business, and often what they "waste" money on, like cars, airplanes, and boats, enables pretty decent middle class jobs. Poor people can waste their money as well, and that's also their business.

Public assistance beneficiaries that waste money are not just wasting the public's money, they are wasting the public's good will and charitable impulse.

 

[Ursae_Majoris]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: Ursae_Majoris

Put my time in working a 70+ hours a week SALARIED job (and working on my Master's at the same time).


If you are very lucky you can do it with 1 part time job and 1 degree stretched out over a few years, claiming that just because you were born in the right time in the right economy and therefore everyone in a recession can do it, I'm not convinced.


Re-read my post. In that salaried job I earned less than $30K a year PRE-TAX.

Luck had nothing to do it. I know several international students going to school RIGHT NOW, and their attitude is a whole better than half of this board's.

It is all about motivation or the lack there of. There are money to be made (or lost) in the recession. It depends on what you do with what God's given you. I know how I want to come out of this recession, moneywise.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: CivicFan
It would be helpful if you knew what welfare did and who meets the requirements:

[...
Eligibility for a Welfare program depends on numerous factors. Eligibility is determined using gross and net income, size of the family, and any crisis situation such as medical emergencies, pregnancy, homelessness or unemployment. A case worker is assigned to those applying for aid. They will gather all the necessary information to determine the amount and type of benefits that an individual is eligible for.

The Federal government provides assistance through TANF (Temporary Assistance for Needy Families). TANF is a grant given to each state to run their own welfare program. To help overcome the former problem of unemployment due to reliance on the welfare system, the TANF grant requires that all recipients of welfare aid must find work within two years of receiving aid, including single parents who are required to work at least 30 hours per week opposed to 35 or 55 required by two parent families. Failure to comply with work requirements could result in loss of benefits.[...] from http://www.welfareinfo.org/

As you can see, this program is not like being on a vacation.


Pssssssst, I posted earlier about the CANADIAN Welfare system, which I specifically said, I think is WORSE than yours. And then cited examples.

 

[ZZman]

Originally Posted By: Ursae_Majoris
Originally Posted By: ZZman

Can the cycle be broken? Sure. Is it easy....debatable.

Not everyone is cut out for college. Because of upbringing, finances, education, lack of drive etc...

We have to remember that all members of working society play an important roll. Not everyone can be doctors, lawyers, wall street types etc....There are other just as important "lower class" jobs that keep society running smoothly and keeps us happy by providing services we all enjoy and need.

Should they not also deserve a decent living?



They deserve what they earn. Why do you want them to be stuck in that vicious cycle?
When I came to US, I had $20 in my pocket. I have 3 college degrees now (one advanced), never had any school debt (paid as went to school, even though it took longer for me to finish it). Put my time in working a 70+ hours a week SALARIED job (and working on my Master's at the same time).

My family is on the budget. General prices started going up, we went to basic $25 a month cable, downgraded internet connection. We do not buy things, unless we have money in the budget. Generic does just fine.
Ohh, we do not eat anything with HFCS (I am allergic to it), but it still does not break our bank, so, please do not blame child obesity on the unavailability of lower-priced healthy foods.

If I made it in the US, anybody can. We need to stop enabling poor to continue to be poor.


And you would be the exception. Like the ultra rich are the exception. Is it possible...Yes. Is it normal or realistic.....No.

Just as some poor climb out of poverty because they wanted to, others stay in it because that is all they know and can envision for themselves.

Once again you were highly motivated. You wanted college degrees. Not everyone does or should have too.

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: ZZman


We have to remember that all members of working society play an important roll. Not everyone can be doctors, lawyers, wall street types etc....There are other just as important "lower class" jobs that keep society running smoothly and keeps us happy by providing services we all enjoy and need.

Should they not also deserve a decent living?



My mailman when I was a kid was a genius. He probably read Sartre on his lunch break. He chose not to put the effort into a job that fired all his brain cells. He did the mailman thing well enough and contributed modestly to society if you just go by the economics of things.

But he was also a very good photographer, shown in galleries and museums, and contributed in that way, which you can't put a price tag on. Presumably the accolades of his fans stimulated and rewarded his mind/ego in a way his post office paycheck did not.

Not everyone has to get completely overheated in capitalism.

If he lives in a neighborhood of other mailmen, does he need to keep up with the Joneses? Is the pursuit of capitalist happiness having that new gizmo first? What about those developing countries where thirty people own one communal soccer ball and have a blast all day?

Is it wierd for an American to not bite over capitalist ideals? You know, the old lady who has a mall built around her house because she didn't sell out for any price?

 

[ZZman]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2




So to respond to the second part of the commentary, dont they deserve a decent wage... They surely do. And they surely get it. Work at McDonalds for $7.25 an hour and over the standard 2087hr man-year, you bring in $15130. That's above the poverty line for a family of two from here:

http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/11poverty.shtml

Does it mean it will go far? Absolutely not! But it means that someone earning $20/hr, roughly $40k/yr is WELL above the poverty line. So define decent wage? Does this mean a roof over your head and nutritious food in the stomach? If so, it is doable. If it is supposed to mean 20 MPG car an cell and cable and 74 in the winter and 65 in the summer, perhaps we have a little bit of a discrepancy.

It may mean discomfort and a lot of hard work to move from those conditions, but hard work is what it takes. Settle into the modern "I deserve it" mindset, and the work that is being performed goes nowhere but to the marketers and make them rich.

A little more Dave Ramsey, a little less MTV, IMO.



So poverty is our line huh? Maybe you think $ 7.25 an hour is doable and living but I don't. I call that surviving not living. Maybe for a kid in school or a second income for a spouse maybe.

A decent wage in my opinion would be at a bare minimum $ 10.00 an hour with benefits for one person. Much higher if you are raising a family.

So nice to talk about the poverty line and surviving when some CEO's make more in a one day than the average American makes in a year. Or in this case more in a few hours than poverty people make in a year.

If hard work means college degrees than many will never make it. If hard work means hard work than many do that already working 2-3 jobs to try and get by and live a fairly comfortable life. Yes having a car, cell phone, cable does make life more comfortable. That may mean a ratty car and cheap cell phone. It is no fun having nothing and watching others have theirs.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: ZZman

I would define Middle class as about $ 30-100,000 a year. Upper middle above that.

Per family? That's pretty low.

Middle-class in the Bay Area should be well over 100,000/yr per family.

 

[ZZman]

Originally Posted By: The Critic
Originally Posted By: ZZman

I would define Middle class as about $ 30-100,000 a year. Upper middle above that.

Per family? That's pretty low.

Middle-class in the Bay Area should be well over 100,000/yr per family.


In California I bet. I can't afford to live there......

 

[Ursae_Majoris]

Originally Posted By: ZZman
Originally Posted By: Ursae_Majoris
Originally Posted By: ZZman

Can the cycle be broken? Sure. Is it easy....debatable.

Not everyone is cut out for college. Because of upbringing, finances, education, lack of drive etc...

We have to remember that all members of working society play an important roll. Not everyone can be doctors, lawyers, wall street types etc....There are other just as important "lower class" jobs that keep society running smoothly and keeps us happy by providing services we all enjoy and need.

Should they not also deserve a decent living?



They deserve what they earn. Why do you want them to be stuck in that vicious cycle?
When I came to US, I had $20 in my pocket. I have 3 college degrees now (one advanced), never had any school debt (paid as went to school, even though it took longer for me to finish it). Put my time in working a 70+ hours a week SALARIED job (and working on my Master's at the same time).

My family is on the budget. General prices started going up, we went to basic $25 a month cable, downgraded internet connection. We do not buy things, unless we have money in the budget. Generic does just fine.
Ohh, we do not eat anything with HFCS (I am allergic to it), but it still does not break our bank, so, please do not blame child obesity on the unavailability of lower-priced healthy foods.

If I made it in the US, anybody can. We need to stop enabling poor to continue to be poor.


And you would be the exception. Like the ultra rich are the exception. Is it possible...Yes. Is it normal or realistic.....No.
Once again you were highly motivated. Not everyone does or should have too.


If they are not motivated to help themselves, why should government spent MY taxes to enable them to have the same or better lifestyle that I have? They are leaches on the society. This kind of thinking bankrupted USSR, Greece, France, UK, and is now bankrupting US.
Sooner or later producers, like me, will say "no more". Please stop coming with excuses to justify wealth redistribution.

 

[3311]

Originally Posted By: Ursae_Majoris
Originally Posted By: ZZman
Originally Posted By: Ursae_Majoris
Originally Posted By: ZZman

Can the cycle be broken? Sure. Is it easy....debatable.

Not everyone is cut out for college. Because of upbringing, finances, education, lack of drive etc...

We have to remember that all members of working society play an important roll. Not everyone can be doctors, lawyers, wall street types etc....There are other just as important "lower class" jobs that keep society running smoothly and keeps us happy by providing services we all enjoy and need.

Should they not also deserve a decent living?



They deserve what they earn. Why do you want them to be stuck in that vicious cycle?
When I came to US, I had $20 in my pocket. I have 3 college degrees now (one advanced), never had any school debt (paid as went to school, even though it took longer for me to finish it). Put my time in working a 70+ hours a week SALARIED job (and working on my Master's at the same time).

My family is on the budget. General prices started going up, we went to basic $25 a month cable, downgraded internet connection. We do not buy things, unless we have money in the budget. Generic does just fine.
Ohh, we do not eat anything with HFCS (I am allergic to it), but it still does not break our bank, so, please do not blame child obesity on the unavailability of lower-priced healthy foods.

If I made it in the US, anybody can. We need to stop enabling poor to continue to be poor.


And you would be the exception. Like the ultra rich are the exception. Is it possible...Yes. Is it normal or realistic.....No.
Once again you were highly motivated. Not everyone does or should have too.


If they are not motivated to help themselves, why should government spent MY taxes to enable them to have the same or better lifestyle that I have? They are leaches on the society. This kind of thinking bankrupted USSR, Greece, France, UK, and is now bankrupting US.
Sooner or later producers, like me, will say "no more". Please stop coming with excuses to justify wealth redistribution.
Well Said!