Good result so far, ATF+4 in Honda Z1

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I pulled the trigger a week early on an oil change and trans D&F on the CRV. I did this to satisfy some curiousity about changing. I used ST for the first 3 q, drove a while, did the rest with Valvoline. I reset the ECUs by taking off the (+) wire and touching it to the (-) post via a wrench. Not for the faint-hearted, but I do it all the time. It cleared the ECL and reset the TCU.

Driving is completely diffrent, more so than any ATF change I've done. Dex, Z1, MaxLife, M1+LG, Z1+AMSoil+ARX and now the ATF+4. Dropping it into D, the trans reacts more quickly getting into gear. Less slop on take off from start. More positive GAS pedal feel. Smoother. Quieter. Shifts are far from being quick or firm. No sensation of slipping, but it's a soft shift.

I'm happy for now. If it acts up, I'll toss in another 4oz of ARX and drive it a 1000 or 2000 miles and try some M1 ATF that is a bit grippier. Remember, when I used M1+LG, shifts were nice at first and then got pretty hard 6 mo/8k later.

FTR, my drain plug magnet was low to medium deposits, but they were black rather than grey. Maybe somethign to do with ARX. Metallics were low to moderate, all uniform & silver.

I know some people will say any improvement was the CEL reset, TCU reset, ARX, the oil change, global warming, my imagination, et al. I'd like to see others try it. I notice a lot of the posts on the ATF forum are all hypothetical and theory.

I gotta say, the kicker for me trying this is that ATF friction charateristics change over service life, and I think there is a lot of crossover of fluids over time.
 
What's next, Type F?

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Interesting app for ATF+4. Thanks for sharing. Keep us posted. I've often wondered how certain fluids would behave in non-recommended apps, then some of the braver bitogers go out and try all kinds of different fluids and combinations of additives with certain fluids, some with very good results to share.
 
Afaik, Z1 is a friction-modified basic ATF, like Dex III but more slippery. I guess it's like ATF+3 in that respect??? All I can say is that it's on the FM end of the spectrum, with Dex on the other end. I wish I knew more as to where the ATFs all line up as far as friction, like where does M5 come in? Anyway, I'm thinking this is working. btw, does MaxLife ok ATF+4? It seems like ATF+4 a unique stand-alone product, like Z-1, but synthetic. The Valvoline bottle said "Full Synthetic", $5.
 
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Afaik, Z1 is a friction-modified basic ATF, like Dex III but more slippery. I guess it's like ATF+3 in that respect??? All I can say is that it's on the FM end of the spectrum, with Dex on the other end. I wish I knew more as to where the ATFs all line up as far as friction, like where does M5 come in? Anyway, I'm thinking this is working. btw, does MaxLife ok ATF+4? It seems like ATF+4 a unique stand-alone product, like Z-1, but synthetic. The Valvoline bottle said "Full Synthetic", $5.

Since when were Dexron fluids not friction modified?
 
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
I gotta say, the kicker for me trying this is that ATF friction charateristics change over service life

False, especially with the newer fluids like +4 and Dexron-VI.

Engineers are trying to formulate fluids that will retain the same frictional properties from the beginning until the end of the fluid's service life.
 
You tell us how they line up as far as FM. I have dial-up internet and you are the expert. ;0)
 
Here's somthing to support my decision.

http://www.lubegard.com/automotive/trans_atf_hfm.html

LG Black, a fluid converter, converts (supposedy) Dex/Merc to all the Chrysler/Asian HMFs, sort of placing them in the same ballpark. The graph on that page shows Dex v Chrysler v Too much "slip". Well, if I don't feel any slip with ATF+4 and am spot-on right next to Dex as far as friction, I may be in the safe zone, approx where Z1 is....just improved quality since ATF+3.

On the other hand, MaxLife ATF ok's Z1 and Dex/Merc, but not ATF+4. I can see how that works in a few ways. ATF+4 is a paid-spec, but ironicly Valvoline has no problem "recommending" products w/o actual endorsments or tests. let's just say MAxLife does not do the HMF thing, ok, why is Z1 on there....is it more like Dex/Merc afterall?. I don't think so because of the converter thing and LG lums Z1 in with "HMFs". Maybe too, that MaxLife just can't cut it as ATF+4. Funny, otoh, how LG thinks they can convert sucky DexIII to ATF+4 with a shot of liquid wax esters.

Kinda pita, but MaxLife recommends two different sets of apps on two places on the page.
Ford MERCON®
GM DEXRON III, DEXRON III-G
GM DEXRON, DEXRON II, DEXRON IIE
Ford M2C138-CJ
Ford M2C166-H
Allison C-4

Look at the pds, it has the Asian HMFs as well as Z1, but not the heavy specs above. Pretty confusing.

http://www.valvoline.com/products/Maxlife ATF.pdf

Approvals/Performance Levels
Exceeds the latest performance requirements of DEXRON®-III H and MERCON® fluids
Recommended for use in GM, Ford, Mazda, Toyota, Hyundai and others where DEXRON®-III and MERCON® fluids are specified
Suitable for use in Nissan Matic D, Matic J, Matic K applications
Suitable for use in KIA SP-II and SP-III applications and in Mitsubishi Diamond SP-II and SP-III applications
Suitable for use in Toyota/Lexus Type T, T-III and T-IV applications
Suitable for use in Honda/Acura ATF-Z1 (except in CVTs) applications


Funny thing I mean to say before, the trans just sort of feels "more expensive". I know that's a stupid term, but its' as if we got all new mounts or something. Smoother and quieter too.

So far so good.
 
I'm getting cold feet. There are too many Z1 "approved" fluids to choose from to go ahead with the ATF+4. As I dig deeper, I think, yes, ATF+4 is a higher spec than M5, but I also see something like Castrol HM ATF listing Z1 as the FIRST spec as well as M5, which seems like it's a good-enough product for me, in this trans.

When I see +4 listed as the sole spec, I think it could be two reasons. One is that it is a higher spec, another that the licencing does not allow it to be combined w/ others. See?


http://www.castrol.com/castrol/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9012226&contentId=7028224

At least one M5 fluid claims to be Full Synth, Valvoline. Anything in that ball park that says Z1 on the label is fine with me. I will be looking for good cold flow to compare the next fluid I'll use. That's the only glitch now (which was pre-existing), when it's a lil cold, the trans overrevs between 2-3 and maybe 3-4. I think long-term is better served by tighter shifts. ARX definately cleared up the shift knocks.
 
Alright, I had a chance to drive the CRV extensively tonight. My original impressions stand. Subjectively, I'd say that the fluid feels thicker, with ~more~ grab than before. I know that seems counter to our exectations with friction modifiers, that more "slippery" means more slip. My guess is that the same additives which reduce friction are also making the materials "grab down" with pressure. That's how it feels. It really is silky smooth and perfectly responsive, slow soft shifts with perfect engagment. Slop is eliminated, it's like driving a manual. That's it for now. I think everything is good.
 
Goodness of fluid? Sure, shift quality is a must.
Cold weather flow is better with ATF+4 then most OE fluids.
HFM is a little high but most computer controlled transmission can adapt.
Wear performance of ATF+4 blows away your typical DexronIII and Mercons. Since Dexron can also be used in Hondas in an emergeny(shift quality suffers), goodness here leans toward ATF+4.
Long life of the ATF is a combination of the groupII+/III basestocks that must meet ATF+4 criteria, along with selected additives and VIIs.

Why do we constantly bring seriously obsoelete Type-F ATF into every ATF thread? Does any new car ship with it still?
 
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
You tell us how they line up as far as FM. I have dial-up internet and you are the expert. ;0)

Very different. See the SAE paper.
 
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