Good aftermarket speakers - 6.5 inch using factory headunit?

[meep]

My *favorite sub was one I installed into my 06 tundra double cab. There was little room in it, and I used the back seat too much to put a sub under it - so I gutted the center console and built a ported sub into the console, facing the rear. It was a 0.5 cubic foot box with a single 6.5” Dayton subwoofer with a port… about 6” long by 1” inner diameter… I probably tuned it to about 55hz or so, maybe a touch lower, and shot for a flat response to f3. No, it could not get stupid loud, or even “loud“ (my taste, it could go louder than my wife ever wanted it), but it was smoooooooooooth. I also learned that for the cleanest sound, as it began to roll in around 110hz, I had to cut the 4 door speakers out at the same 110. Yes, they could have added bass, but it wasn’t clean. That little 6.5 had enough oomf to certainly cover rock, jazz, and my favorite, live R&B - type recordings. It handled Daft Punk just fine, putting even my Lexus to shame. All in a 6.5. The quality was fabulous, even if I was using 80% of its output most of the time.

i spent on quality, not quantity. The HU was alpine, which allowed a lot of control for what frequencies and delays went out each output, the amps were … idk… probably alpine as well, and the 4 door speakers were JBL, but those were a bit problematic.

jbl ships their separates out with the tweets way too hot. I had to build reduction networks to the tweeters to drop them a few db… I’m thinking it was 4.5. Kenwood has figured this out and offers a tweeter compensation feature on their newer decks. i went old school and built resistor networks past the crossover. For the money paid, believe me i was disappointed, but jbl is not alone in this - it is very common because bright highs sell in the demo room.

i didn’t use a lot of watts. I think the sub got 110 or so. Each door got … 50?

i also pulled off all the door panels and added insulation both to the door skins and also everywhere I could to weight down the door cards. It helped some. I went cheap and used the Home Depot “peel and stick“ gutter tape, a cheap alternative to acoustimat, but the truck did smell like hot tar for a summer.

i used an RTA app on my phone to dial out the hot spots on the EQ, and then the ear for final touches. (Note, if you ever tune with an RTA, don’t bother boosting EQ to fill in dead spots… they are dead due to physics, and boosting it won’t fight physics, it just eats power and adds distortion). in commercial audio and recording, EQ is a tool to cut out problems, and boosting is only to be used very very carefully, as it can cause a lot of cumulative problems.

fun stuff. Makes me almost want to go mess with the newer truck in the driveway… but I just can’t.… because as it was said earlier in this thread, once you start, it gets on you a bit like a disease!

great thread… you’re doing good!

 

[dan_erickson]

My *favorite sub was one I installed into my 06 tundra double cab. There was little room in it, and I used the back seat too much to put a sub under it - so I gutted the center console and built a ported sub into the console, facing the rear. It was a 0.5 cubic foot box with a single 6.5” Dayton subwoofer with a port… about 6” long by 1” inner diameter… I probably tuned it to about 55hz or so, maybe a touch lower, and shot for a flat response to f3. No, it could not get stupid loud, or even “loud“ (my taste, it could go louder than my wife ever wanted it), but it was smoooooooooooth. I also learned that for the cleanest sound, as it began to roll in around 110hz, I had to cut the 4 door speakers out at the same 110. Yes, they could have added bass, but it wasn’t clean. That little 6.5 had enough oomf to certainly cover rock, jazz, and my favorite, live R&B - type recordings. It handled Daft Punk just fine, putting even my Lexus to shame. All in a 6.5. The quality was fabulous, even if I was using 80% of its output most of the time.

i spent on quality, not quantity. The HU was alpine, which allowed a lot of control for what frequencies and delays went out each output, the amps were … idk… probably alpine as well, and the 4 door speakers were JBL, but those were a bit problematic.

jbl ships their separates out with the tweets way too hot. I had to build reduction networks to the tweeters to drop them a few db… I’m thinking it was 4.5. Kenwood has figured this out and offers a tweeter compensation feature on their newer decks. i went old school and built resistor networks past the crossover. For the money paid, believe me i was disappointed, but jbl is not alone in this - it is very common because bright highs sell in the demo room.

i didn’t use a lot of watts. I think the sub got 110 or so. Each door got … 50?

i also pulled off all the door panels and added insulation both to the door skins and also everywhere I could to weight down the door cards. It helped some. I went cheap and used the Home Depot “peel and stick“ gutter tape, a cheap alternative to acoustimat, but the truck did smell like hot tar for a summer.

i used an RTA app on my phone to dial out the hot spots on the EQ, and then the ear for final touches. (Note, if you ever tune with an RTA, don’t bother boosting EQ to fill in dead spots… they are dead due to physics, and boosting it won’t fight physics, it just eats power and adds distortion). in commercial audio and recording, EQ is a tool to cut out problems, and boosting is only to be used very very carefully, as it can cause a lot of cumulative problems.

fun stuff. Makes me almost want to go mess with the newer truck in the driveway… but I just can’t.… because as it was said earlier in this thread, once you start, it gets on you a bit like a disease!

great thread… you’re doing good!

I’m a car audio snob and compete in SQ comps. Your post made me smile because you know what your talking about

 

[meep]

I’m a car audio snob and compete in SQ comps. Your post made me smile because you know what your talking about

thanks for the compliment! I have a healthy respect for you SQ Comp guys. Y’all are crazy. My time was more adapted from live sound - it is HARD to dial in an odd-shaped metal can with 7 flexible vibrating surfaces, and then try for imaging? That’s an art form.

 

[dan_erickson]

thanks for the compliment! I have a healthy respect for you SQ Comp guys. Y’all are crazy. My time was more adapted from live sound - it is HARD to dial in an odd-shaped metal can with 7 flexible vibrating surfaces, and then try for imaging? That’s an art form.

Let me just say it took about 6 years to build and tune my system to where I’m happy with it.

 

[1 SX]

I could see this being year(s) long project thats for sure!

I received the new 2 farad capacitor with led volt read out and audio alert ect.. installed and the results are not what I was expecting.. Yes the lights no longer dim at idle with bass hits. (I was expecting that) BUT

It seems the overall subwoofer quality sound has gone up? It hits even harder (with slightly more vibrations through the chassis but is not over powering in terms of "bass sound")
It just sounds better like when it draws the bass/watts it has some energy in reserve at the end of the bass. It's hard to explain but is exactly what the subwoofer/amp needed.

I was kinda joking about the 2 12's with a million plus watts, but honestly I'd like to do a nice custom installed 12 inch single subwoofer with like a 1k amp - nothing too crazy, as I do value my hearing but would absolutely LOVE a custom installed setup just for the OCD and look aspect of it... down the road sometime it is on my radar.

 

[dan_erickson]

Yes. When you have enough reserve capacity when the amp draws a huge load from the battery your SQ will also go up.

 

[1 SX]

Update timez:
I was on market place (again) and I came across a pioneer 12 inch champion series 4 ohm single voice coil, 500 rms watts subwoofer… it seems this is the identical, but new version of the pioneer that is currently installed.
I got it for 60% off MSRP cash deal with again nothing more than a “went a different route“

And some close ups of the old one;

installed the new pioneer champion subwoofer and I’m letting it “break in“ now at a low volume.

I can already tell it’s going to hit harder. It also seems to be a lot “stiffer“

 

[researcher]

hey @1 SX I never realized how small the speaker cone of your older one actually is! Looking at the difference, wow.. And yes I agree looks like this 301s4 is closer to what you had, instead of that other one we were talking about. Yup you have been bitten by the audio bug! But.. it's also fun to explore what kind of sound you like better. You can look at specs all day and say "oh that's perfect" but sometimes people's ears just like certain type sounds. It's all about what you like!

Hitting harder you say? Well that might be because it's newer/stiffer. Looks like you may have found the aged problem with the older one. Did you measure the box? What kind of volume does that sealed box have?

Thanks for the update! Glad it's working out.. oh and about the capacitor yes it makes sense that if you feed more "clean" power to the amp you'll have a much cleaner sounding speaker.

 

[1 SX]

Something dawned on me again after the fact….

When I removed the old pioneer subwoofer, there was residual poly-fill but the box was completely empty…


I installed the new pioneer subwoofer give it a test play and then jumped on Google and tried to learn about poly-fill and sealed subwoofer box enclosures.

And I kind of like what I was reading so I bought some poly fill added to the specific amount per cubic feet of the box and reinstall the new pioneer subwoofer.

And I was not expecting such a dramatic “sound“ improvement - it’s halfway to ported sound but it’s not actually ported so there’s a little more “boom“ and also the bass frequencies actually feel stronger… like in your chest or through the seat steering wheel, etc overall, it sounds like I added 200 W and another 3 inches worth of subwoofer

This by far was the best “upgrade“ of this whole experience, so far in terms of difference. Even with the new subwoofer yes I did notice a difference, but it was not as dramatic as Poly filling in the box…. With the new subwoofer - I really like what I’m hearing now

 

[meep]

Poly fill can adjust the tuning of the box, making it appear …. errr up to 30-50% larger in volume, at some relatively small sacrifice in efficiency.

 

[researcher]

Yes I agree with meep.. the poly fill actually slows down the sound waves inside the box, from what I remember the poly will turn the sound wave into an actual mechanical movement creating a little heat in the poly fill. But slowing down the sound wave will result in the box sounding bigger than it is. But too much of a good thing, is a bad thing.. So too much poly will over dampen the sound waves coming from the speaker.. No worries here, sounds like you put just enough to do the job! good for you! Yes some efficiency will be lost but it will "Tighten" up the sound.. Makes me wonder if the original owner who put the box together wanted the bass they created without poly fill.

What's good here is you're learning about speaker box design.. that's awesome! The sealed box you have also creates the tightest, focused bass of all the types of speaker enclosures out there. Happy to hear with a couple of tweaks you're where you want to be. It's like that, get a new system, the install is only half the journey, the tuning is the other half.. and from your other post tweaking the amp is helping, good job!

 

[1 SX]

Thanks for the encouraging words!!

Honest question here. is 180 watts X2 bridged @ 4 ohms "enough" power for this Pioneer Champion series 12 inch 4 ohm subwoofer in a stuffed 2 ft.³ box?

The subwoofer has power handling of 500 watt rms / 1600 peak. The JL audio amp thats installed produces a CLEAN 180 X2 but again feel like I am under powering the subwoofer to a slight degree.. Yes I could turn input sensitivity up some more, but don't think thats the "correct" way - maybe it is?

I am looking for a reason to put in a bigger amp haha. I already ran 4 gauge? power and grounds and 2k capacitor so a new amp would be plug and play..

I am thinking around 450-500 rms would be the sweet spot for this subwoofer for what I have gathered? I should not really focus on "peak watts" of amps right? I see some creazy high numbers 2400 watts peak but only 750 rms @ 4 ohms. 2 ohms see to double the power and 1 ohm can see the full power of the amp?

 

[meep]

You need to find a box / tuning / power calculator to answer your questions. The speaker interacts with the box, and power needs and limits also build into cone extension, box tuning, and the “thiele small” (T/S) values for the speaker. 100 watts at 40 hertz, for example, might send the cone out of bounds, where 100 watts at 120hz is loafing along. It all figures in.

check out partsexpress.com. They have a forum where these guys Get Real on building properly tuned enclosures. Go look at some of the subwoofers and look up the specs. You will see a number of specifications that are consistently presented. The manufacturers will often include suggested box dimensions and response charts for That speaker in That box. The drivers by Dayton audio and Eminence will have decent spec sheets, especially eminence.

 

[nthach]

Are you running that subwoofer in a box? Many people who are replacing a factory sub simply drop in anything that fits and expecting the best. In reality, the factory sub is a infinite-baffle, “free-air” sub with a beefy suspension, while many aftermarket subs must in an a box with the appropriate volume(construction is up to you, ported/band pass/sealed). My little Kicker Hideaway is a “sealed” powered sub but I have it tuned via the HPF and the EQ in my deck to be a band pass.

That Pioneer is a nice one. You can always use a “project roll” of fiberglass insulation as fill.

 

[1 SX]

Are you running that subwoofer in a box? Many people who are replacing a factory sub simply drop in anything that fits and expecting the best. In reality, the factory sub is a infinite-baffle, “free-air” sub with a beefy suspension, while many aftermarket subs must in an a box with the appropriate volume(construction is up to you, ported/band pass/sealed). My little Kicker Hideaway is a “sealed” powered sub but I have it tuned via the HPF and the EQ in my deck to be a band pass.

That Pioneer is a nice one. You can always use a “project roll” of fiberglass insulation as fill.

The 12 inch pioneer champion series subwoofer is in a sealed and stuffed 1.75 - 2 ft.³ ish box. It is powered by a 180 watt x2 bridged JL audio amp. (Thus is why im asking if I should upgrade the subwoofer amp ?) The Champion series sub that is installed has a 500 watt rms and 1600 watt peak and im "only" sending it 180 watt x2 bridged at the very very most. It is a CLEAN 180 watt x2 though but I think "if" I could upgrade the amp to a (throwing out numbers here) 1500 watt peak 500 watt rms @ 4 ohm amp, it would drive this brand new champion series with a little more "authority"?

The kia does not have a factory subwoofer but does have a factory "helper" amp to clean up the speaker signal a little bit to the 6 total oem speaker locations. "volume" is not a issue as the OEM speakers have been replaced with Infinity 6.5 inch aftermarket high sensitivity speakers. out of 33ish max on volume scale 15 is pretty loud and 20 is uncomfortable - but still crystal clear. Under every day conditions my average normal is 11 to 14 volume.

 

[meep]

Amp wattage ratings become fiction all too often. An honest 180 will sound much better than a fictitious 500.

an area this shows up is damping factor and slew rate. What this is is basically this: the amp sends a signal to get the cone moving outward. It’s a big, heavy cone. The cone gets moving. Just as it’s reached its traveling speed, the amp has tapered the current down and is sending a reverse voltage to pull the cone the other direction. BUT, the cone has built momentum and is now back feeding power into the amp. The amp must now not only provide the reversing power but must also keep the reversing power on top while the sub is generating its own electricity and shoving it back into the amp. It’s an electrical tug of war. If the amp can’t handle the power back feeding from the speaker and control it, the sound becomes weak and thin, not robust and full. The cone motion, instead of being a smooth wave, kinda gets yanked back and forth out of time even, if the music gets ahead of the motion. The whole thing kinda falls apart. So, amp quality counts.

 

[researcher]

Thanks for the encouraging words!!

Honest question here. is 180 watts X2 bridged @ 4 ohms "enough" power for this Pioneer Champion series 12 inch 4 ohm subwoofer in a stuffed 2 ft.³ box?

The subwoofer has power handling of 500 watt rms / 1600 peak. The JL audio amp thats installed produces a CLEAN 180 X2 but again feel like I am under powering the subwoofer to a slight degree.. Yes I could turn input sensitivity up some more, but don't think thats the "correct" way - maybe it is?

I am looking for a reason to put in a bigger amp haha. I already ran 4 gauge? power and grounds and 2k capacitor so a new amp would be plug and play..

I am thinking around 450-500 rms would be the sweet spot for this subwoofer for what I have gathered? I should not really focus on "peak watts" of amps right? I see some creazy high numbers 2400 watts peak but only 750 rms @ 4 ohms. 2 ohms see to double the power and 1 ohm can see the full power of the amp?

@meep brings up an excellent point of the internal design/specs of a good amp and yes JL audio makes good amps. A "clean" amp of 360watts (bridged 180w x 2) would be better than some other 500rms.. I remember back in the day Alpine amps even though some of them were "lower" rms watt outputs were so much cleaner, clearer sounding. But also back to what you're asking.. No I don't think you need more watts, the "underpowered" feeling is always there in car audio.. I've been through the same thing before. Always wanting more and more.. Told ya, it's an addiction! You could get the system tweaked to perfection to the point where you analyze it with in cabin microphones and a spectrum analyzer! And you'd still want to tweak it just a little more!! lol...

The other existing problem is even if you did upgrade to a higher output amplifier, where are you going to get the amperage to drive that amp? Remember you needed a capacitor to just bring the existing amp back to normal levels. You would have to upgrade the alternator, but you know what.. Thinking of what we talked about earlier as I type this, maybe your spidey senses are kicking in! Maybe you don't need a new amp but a new alternator putting out more amps, maybe what you're hearing or perceiving as a lack of something might just be the alternator not keeping up all the time with the amps demands.. the cap is only for transient hits to keep up with the demands..

Remember when you got the new cap? And you noticed the sound quality was better? And I was saying it probably was a band aid fix, but we had to see what it would do. Might be time to upgrade the alternator.. I think you had 100 or 110amps.. But at what rpms? Some homework you'll have to do for now... no point in upgrading the amp if you don't have the power to drive it!! Always the basics..

And I'm glad you got the 4 gauge wiring, it's all coming together!

 

[researcher]

The 12 inch pioneer champion series subwoofer is in a sealed and stuffed 1.75 - 2 ft.³ ish box. It is powered by a 180 watt x2 bridged JL audio amp. (Thus is why im asking if I should upgrade the subwoofer amp ?) The Champion series sub that is installed has a 500 watt rms and 1600 watt peak and im "only" sending it 180 watt x2 bridged at the very very most. It is a CLEAN 180 watt x2 though but I think "if" I could upgrade the amp to a (throwing out numbers here) 1500 watt peak 500 watt rms @ 4 ohm amp, it would drive this brand new champion series with a little more "authority"?

The kia does not have a factory subwoofer but does have a factory "helper" amp to clean up the speaker signal a little bit to the 6 total oem speaker locations. "volume" is not a issue as the OEM speakers have been replaced with Infinity 6.5 inch aftermarket high sensitivity speakers. out of 33ish max on volume scale 15 is pretty loud and 20 is uncomfortable - but still crystal clear. Under every day conditions my average normal is 11 to 14 volume.

oh and also.. it's OK to underdrive a speaker when reading the RMS.. You're not far from the RMS at 360watts. I don't like to get right at the rms, that way the way I think is there's some "breathing room".. The damage to a speaker comes from an over driven amplifier, when you do that to the extreme, the speaker begins to see what looks like dc voltage! If you were to look at the power signature on an oscilloscope it would look less like an audio signal and more like voltage! That's how you burn things out..

 

[1 SX]

Update and a couple more questions...

I decided on this pioneer amp to drive the 12" pioneer champion series subwoofer. It's a 500 watt rms 1000 watt peak at 4 ohm. I am trying to stay with one brand when it comes to the subwoofer to hopefully get better characteristics. My thinking behind getting this pioneer amp is then use the JL audio 360/4 amp to power the infinity speakers in car.
This pioneer amp is refreshingly simple basically gain and fq adjustments... and a wired bass control. and that it. It fits the bill nicely as it DID add more punch at all volumes, and comes in STRONG on the upper end on the scale. I bought it new but for 45% off the mrsp so it was differently worth it.

But now the questions!.
How would I go about using the JL audio 360/4 amp to power the in car infinity speakers?
Is this where a distribution block comes in the play for the power and grounds of additional amp?
Would I use the "output" on the pioneer amp to send signal to the JL audio amp?

How would you go about installing and hooking up this JL audio amp?
Thanks!

 

[meep]

You need to go from the

RADIO

to an active CROSSOVER

which splits the signals to the

AMPS

make sense?

now, before you go whip out your wallet, dont buy the Xover yet. Do some reading on digital signal processing, because the moment you finish with the Xover, you’re going to wish you had a parametric EQ to begin notching out trouble spots where things reverberate or boom unnaturally. You’ll spend 2-3x as much, but in the end, you’ll have everything you need in one box. DSP. Should have Xover, EQ and time alignment capabilities.

also, pick up a phone app with RTA (real time analyzer) and burn a CD with a Pink Noise file on it. Use 48khz sampling or the highest your head unit will decipher. You will play the pink noise track through the system while looking at your RTA, and some things will start to make sense in your head.

and then you will drool because this is getting real.

and then, you’ll cut some of the highs, because the true RTA will seem harsh, and cut some of the bottom lows because they are too pronounced, ending up with natural roll-off curves on the highs and lows.

the rta app should be free, or very inexpensive. The phone mic doesn’t need to be a perfect sampling mic for this - it will be good enough.

between the dsp, the RTA, and pink noise file, you should be busy for … a long time … tweaking….