GM to partner with China
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Originally Posted By: Nick R
What very few of you realize, is that in order to do business in china, the chinese government REQUIRES foreign companies to parter with a chinese domestic company.
Yeah but that's the catch. That why china can more easily steal tehnology and basically make claims on the other partner. Short-term it might make sense but what about long-term?
What very few of you realize, is that in order to do business in china, the chinese government REQUIRES foreign companies to parter with a chinese domestic company.
Yeah but that's the catch. That why china can more easily steal tehnology and basically make claims on the other partner. Short-term it might make sense but what about long-term?
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
The way I read it this will be for vehicles sold in China, not the USA-but I would be more concerned about the transfer of technology than anything else.
Exactly how I see it. China will basically steal and copy GM's technology then one day import cars to the US that are a little cheaper and people will buy them. Then they'll put domestics out of business in the US. They might even build some token plants in the US as wages here continue to fall. Then everyone will say, "see they are made in the US and non-union too. yay!". That's the model isn't it? Japanese>Korean>Chinese.
I agree with this to a certain extent.
But there is a huge distinction between Japan/Korea and the Chinese market, and it may effect the history as it plays out. That difference is that the market in China is huge, Japan and Korea both have relatively small markets for new car sales. Without exporting cars to US, Japan would never have been able to achieve the economies of scale that the US manufacturers did here. In other words, Japan and Korea really need their export markets, their home market is miniscule, whereas our manufacturers and hopefully the Chinese car manufacturers have/had a readily available captive home market.
I will say this, the US manufacturers have a huge advantage in the Chinese culture, and if they work it right, they could really capitalize on it. The cultural bias between China and Japan is a real and viable concern for some of the Japanese maufacturers.
Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
The way I read it this will be for vehicles sold in China, not the USA-but I would be more concerned about the transfer of technology than anything else.
Exactly how I see it. China will basically steal and copy GM's technology then one day import cars to the US that are a little cheaper and people will buy them. Then they'll put domestics out of business in the US. They might even build some token plants in the US as wages here continue to fall. Then everyone will say, "see they are made in the US and non-union too. yay!". That's the model isn't it? Japanese>Korean>Chinese.
I agree with this to a certain extent.
But there is a huge distinction between Japan/Korea and the Chinese market, and it may effect the history as it plays out. That difference is that the market in China is huge, Japan and Korea both have relatively small markets for new car sales. Without exporting cars to US, Japan would never have been able to achieve the economies of scale that the US manufacturers did here. In other words, Japan and Korea really need their export markets, their home market is miniscule, whereas our manufacturers and hopefully the Chinese car manufacturers have/had a readily available captive home market.
I will say this, the US manufacturers have a huge advantage in the Chinese culture, and if they work it right, they could really capitalize on it. The cultural bias between China and Japan is a real and viable concern for some of the Japanese maufacturers.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I agree with GM trying to get market penetration in other markets. Isn't that what we want, to gain markets and not just give all ours up? What I don't get about some of posters on here is it's OK for every other automaker to do it, even foreign makers to take US market share, but not GM
. To quote the recent Honda commercial GM detractors have truely gone from, "true consumer guy to weird moon-landing denier guy".
The only problem I have with dealing with china is long-term they are planning to use these partnerships to take over the market like they have with most other industries.
Very good points. GM now sells more cars in China than they do in North America. But according to Chinese law, those cars have to be built in China, so that fact is not helping employ Americans, who would not want to work for the wages that a Chinese worker gets. So if GM is making money selling cars in China, does the money at least flow into Detroit? Not until after they have paid their taxes in China.
Down the road, the thing that really worries me is after the Chinese have pirated all the technology, they'll start importing cars to the US for half the cost. Then there won't be any cars built in America, and our industrial base will be gone.
I agree with GM trying to get market penetration in other markets. Isn't that what we want, to gain markets and not just give all ours up? What I don't get about some of posters on here is it's OK for every other automaker to do it, even foreign makers to take US market share, but not GM
The only problem I have with dealing with china is long-term they are planning to use these partnerships to take over the market like they have with most other industries.
Very good points. GM now sells more cars in China than they do in North America. But according to Chinese law, those cars have to be built in China, so that fact is not helping employ Americans, who would not want to work for the wages that a Chinese worker gets. So if GM is making money selling cars in China, does the money at least flow into Detroit? Not until after they have paid their taxes in China.
Down the road, the thing that really worries me is after the Chinese have pirated all the technology, they'll start importing cars to the US for half the cost. Then there won't be any cars built in America, and our industrial base will be gone.
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
The way I read it this will be for vehicles sold in China, not the USA-but I would be more concerned about the transfer of technology than anything else.
Exactly how I see it. China will basically steal and copy GM's technology then one day import cars to the US that are a little cheaper and people will buy them. Then they'll put domestics out of business in the US. They might even build some token plants in the US as wages here continue to fall. Then everyone will say, "see they are made in the US and non-union too. yay!". That's the model isn't it? Japanese>Korean>Chinese.
I agree with this to a certain extent.
But there is a huge distinction between Japan/Korea and the Chinese market, and it may effect the history as it plays out. That difference is that the market in China is huge, Japan and Korea both have relatively small markets for new car sales. Without exporting cars to US, Japan would never have been able to achieve the economies of scale that the US manufacturers did here. In other words, Japan and Korea really need their export markets, their home market is miniscule, whereas our manufacturers and hopefully the Chinese car manufacturers have/had a readily available captive home market.
I will say this, the US manufacturers have a huge advantage in the Chinese culture, and if they work it right, they could really capatilize on it. The cultural bias between China and Japan is a real and viable concern for some of the Japanese maufacturers.
All good points and I agree. I still distrusts china but to tell you the truth Japan and Korea probably messed over our auto industry more than china has so far. China probably won't be the partner that Europe has been but it could be possible they turn out better than the other asian countries. I just have my doubts.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
The way I read it this will be for vehicles sold in China, not the USA-but I would be more concerned about the transfer of technology than anything else.
Exactly how I see it. China will basically steal and copy GM's technology then one day import cars to the US that are a little cheaper and people will buy them. Then they'll put domestics out of business in the US. They might even build some token plants in the US as wages here continue to fall. Then everyone will say, "see they are made in the US and non-union too. yay!". That's the model isn't it? Japanese>Korean>Chinese.
I agree with this to a certain extent.
But there is a huge distinction between Japan/Korea and the Chinese market, and it may effect the history as it plays out. That difference is that the market in China is huge, Japan and Korea both have relatively small markets for new car sales. Without exporting cars to US, Japan would never have been able to achieve the economies of scale that the US manufacturers did here. In other words, Japan and Korea really need their export markets, their home market is miniscule, whereas our manufacturers and hopefully the Chinese car manufacturers have/had a readily available captive home market.
I will say this, the US manufacturers have a huge advantage in the Chinese culture, and if they work it right, they could really capatilize on it. The cultural bias between China and Japan is a real and viable concern for some of the Japanese maufacturers.
All good points and I agree. I still distrusts china but to tell you the truth Japan and Korea probably messed over our auto industry more than china has so far. China probably won't be the partner that Europe has been but it could be possible they turn out better than the other asian countries. I just have my doubts.
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I think we'll get royally screwed based on the technology transfer. To echo mechanicx, nothing wrong with taking advantage of an emerging market. But the nasty part is what happens once China has the technology. It didn't work out well for Cisco, and I don't see it working out well for GM.
Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
The way I read it this will be for vehicles sold in China, not the USA-but I would be more concerned about the transfer of technology than anything else.
They will do the R&D there and keep the intellectual property there as well. The Chinese have realized that at this point, they need to invest in knowledge and they are doing so. Just today, Purdue University got awarded a $10,000,000 grant by The Nanshan Group of China.
If the US lawmakers don't want to invest in knowledge and technologies here, you can't blame GM for going where science is still appreciated.
The way I read it this will be for vehicles sold in China, not the USA-but I would be more concerned about the transfer of technology than anything else.
They will do the R&D there and keep the intellectual property there as well. The Chinese have realized that at this point, they need to invest in knowledge and they are doing so. Just today, Purdue University got awarded a $10,000,000 grant by The Nanshan Group of China.
If the US lawmakers don't want to invest in knowledge and technologies here, you can't blame GM for going where science is still appreciated.
Quote:
If the US lawmakers don't want to invest in knowledge and technologies here, you can't blame GM for going where science is still appreciated.
+1; we can buy it or built it.
If the US lawmakers don't want to invest in knowledge and technologies here, you can't blame GM for going where science is still appreciated.
+1; we can buy it or built it.
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Originally Posted By: CivicFan
Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
The way I read it this will be for vehicles sold in China, not the USA-but I would be more concerned about the transfer of technology than anything else.
They will do the R&D there and keep the intellectual property there as well. The Chinese have realized that at this point, they need to invest in knowledge and they are doing so. Just today, Purdue University got awarded a $10,000,000 grant by The Nanshan Group of China.
If the US lawmakers don't want to invest in knowledge and technologies here, you can't blame GM for going where science is still appreciated.
But that is glossing over the point that China does not have intellectual property rights and laws (or even property rights). GM is bringing R&D, expertise and equipment and China is going to take it and eventually push GM and everyone else out of china's market, then they're going to try to take the US market just like they are doing with everything else and just like Korea and Japan has been doing with the US auto market but worse. Maybe GM sees this as inevitable and better to get in when you can than not at all.
Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
The way I read it this will be for vehicles sold in China, not the USA-but I would be more concerned about the transfer of technology than anything else.
They will do the R&D there and keep the intellectual property there as well. The Chinese have realized that at this point, they need to invest in knowledge and they are doing so. Just today, Purdue University got awarded a $10,000,000 grant by The Nanshan Group of China.
If the US lawmakers don't want to invest in knowledge and technologies here, you can't blame GM for going where science is still appreciated.
But that is glossing over the point that China does not have intellectual property rights and laws (or even property rights). GM is bringing R&D, expertise and equipment and China is going to take it and eventually push GM and everyone else out of china's market, then they're going to try to take the US market just like they are doing with everything else and just like Korea and Japan has been doing with the US auto market but worse. Maybe GM sees this as inevitable and better to get in when you can than not at all.
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
If the Chinese want to blow billions of dollars on the electric car pipe dream, I say let them. GM invested billions of dollars in the Volt, and they are selling at the rate of about 150 per month. Once the $7500 tax break expires, they'll sell even less of them. Now Government Motors has conned the Chinese into putting up a $19,300 subsidy for each Volt. This is called spreading the losses around.
If the Chinese want to blow billions of dollars on the electric car pipe dream, I say let them. GM invested billions of dollars in the Volt, and they are selling at the rate of about 150 per month. Once the $7500 tax break expires, they'll sell even less of them. Now Government Motors has conned the Chinese into putting up a $19,300 subsidy for each Volt. This is called spreading the losses around.
Quote:
Roughly 100 billion yuan (US$15.67 billion) in government funds will be pumped into the sector over the next 10 years, with a target of a whopping 5 million new energy vehicle sales by 2020.
That article shed the light on what's happening around the world. Countries from Germany to China are subsidizing manufacturers to bring Manufacturing to their shores and the much needed employment to their population. While our leaders are bickering on how to decrease unemployment, the rest of the world is offering incentives and whatever it takes to employ their people.
Andrew Liveris Ceo and Chairman of Dow Chemical wrote a book Make it in America: The case for reinventing the economy. Mr. Liveris did a great job explaining what's going with our economy.
Roughly 100 billion yuan (US$15.67 billion) in government funds will be pumped into the sector over the next 10 years, with a target of a whopping 5 million new energy vehicle sales by 2020.
That article shed the light on what's happening around the world. Countries from Germany to China are subsidizing manufacturers to bring Manufacturing to their shores and the much needed employment to their population. While our leaders are bickering on how to decrease unemployment, the rest of the world is offering incentives and whatever it takes to employ their people.
Andrew Liveris Ceo and Chairman of Dow Chemical wrote a book Make it in America: The case for reinventing the economy. Mr. Liveris did a great job explaining what's going with our economy.
Coupled with their ongoing huge investments in nuclear power this makes perfect sense. For them and their dense urban populations and massive air quality problems, the electric car powered by nuclear plants is a viable and smart solution. The jobs are honestly an added bonus in this particular instance.
In many other areas of investment and future proofing here at home, I completely agree with you. What we have here essentially amounts to grid lock. No matter what you propose to do, there is some special interest somewhere that will oppose it it seems.
In many other areas of investment and future proofing here at home, I completely agree with you. What we have here essentially amounts to grid lock. No matter what you propose to do, there is some special interest somewhere that will oppose it it seems.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
But that is glossing over the point that China does not have intellectual property rights and laws (or even property rights). GM is bringing R&D, expertise and equipment and China is going to take it...
So? This is the risk of globalization. GM weighed the odds, and surely decided the short term profit would make the board look good.
Shell oil lost huge assets somewhere (sigh, don't make me look it up) when they invented all these fantastic processes to get at "tough oil". Once underway the host government nationalized the industry.
Look at US assets stranded in Cuba... that we're still fighting over.
For a flipside, note that the first serious industry in US, clothing mills, were stolen from the British by a guy who memorized plans for a loom in his head, and recreated them on this side of the Atlantic.
China seems to have clinched the "teach a man to fish" proverb.
But that is glossing over the point that China does not have intellectual property rights and laws (or even property rights). GM is bringing R&D, expertise and equipment and China is going to take it...
So? This is the risk of globalization. GM weighed the odds, and surely decided the short term profit would make the board look good.
Shell oil lost huge assets somewhere (sigh, don't make me look it up) when they invented all these fantastic processes to get at "tough oil". Once underway the host government nationalized the industry.
Look at US assets stranded in Cuba... that we're still fighting over.
For a flipside, note that the first serious industry in US, clothing mills, were stolen from the British by a guy who memorized plans for a loom in his head, and recreated them on this side of the Atlantic.
China seems to have clinched the "teach a man to fish" proverb.
This was just featured on a news program. It was stated that China is a bigger market than the US. The Chinese are buying more cars than Americans. GM sells more cars in China than the US.
This makes good business sense given that GM has to partner with a Chinese firm to build/sell in that market. However, this creates 0 US jobs and will most likely result in GM cars being imported into the US eliminating more US jobs. Not right away but it will happen.
This goes back to one of the previous threads about domestic vs, foreign. All car companies are global. There is no domestic vs. foreign. GM has no loyalty to the "buy American crowd". They will show the Chevy commercial with John Mellancamp while they invest billions in creating Chinese jobs. I am not bashing GM, this is just reality. Buyers need to purchase the vehicle that best fits their needs and not worry about domestic vs. foreign because the manufacturers don't care.
This makes good business sense given that GM has to partner with a Chinese firm to build/sell in that market. However, this creates 0 US jobs and will most likely result in GM cars being imported into the US eliminating more US jobs. Not right away but it will happen.
This goes back to one of the previous threads about domestic vs, foreign. All car companies are global. There is no domestic vs. foreign. GM has no loyalty to the "buy American crowd". They will show the Chevy commercial with John Mellancamp while they invest billions in creating Chinese jobs. I am not bashing GM, this is just reality. Buyers need to purchase the vehicle that best fits their needs and not worry about domestic vs. foreign because the manufacturers don't care.
Originally Posted By: eljefino
China seems to have clinched the "teach a man to fish" proverb.
Teaching a man to fish is one thing, giving him everything you caught and letting him run off with your rod, reel and tackle is another.
China seems to have clinched the "teach a man to fish" proverb.
Teaching a man to fish is one thing, giving him everything you caught and letting him run off with your rod, reel and tackle is another.
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
GM invested billions of dollars in the Volt, and they are selling at the rate of about 150 per month.
Taken from this Autoblog article:
http://green.autoblog.com/2011/09/22/chevy-volt-sales-whats-the-real-story/
Quote:
Volt sales (like the Nissan Leaf's) are still limited by short supply, not lack of demand. There are waiting lists for both.
Quote:
GM says Volts typically sit on dealer lots an average of three days before being delivered to a customer.
GM invested billions of dollars in the Volt, and they are selling at the rate of about 150 per month.
Taken from this Autoblog article:
http://green.autoblog.com/2011/09/22/chevy-volt-sales-whats-the-real-story/
Quote:
Volt sales (like the Nissan Leaf's) are still limited by short supply, not lack of demand. There are waiting lists for both.
Quote:
GM says Volts typically sit on dealer lots an average of three days before being delivered to a customer.
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Originally Posted By: Cardinal49
This was just featured on a news program. It was stated that China is a bigger market than the US. The Chinese are buying more cars than Americans. GM sells more cars in China than the US.
This makes good business sense given that GM has to partner with a Chinese firm to build/sell in that market. However, this creates 0 US jobs and will most likely result in GM cars being imported into the US eliminating more US jobs. Not right away but it will happen.
This goes back to one of the previous threads about domestic vs, foreign. All car companies are global. There is no domestic vs. foreign. GM has no loyalty to the "buy American crowd". They will show the Chevy commercial with John Mellancamp while they invest billions in creating Chinese jobs. I am not bashing GM, this is just reality. Buyers need to purchase the vehicle that best fits their needs and not worry about domestic vs. foreign because the manufacturers don't care.
You don't see any issue with this regarding the brain drain and future quality of life you will get to enjoy (or not) once this takes place?
The fact that manufacturers don't care IS the problem. And people DO have to worry about domestic vs foreign if they value the state of their country and its economy. Domestic manufacturers should also be held to a higher standard when it comes to not only creating, but KEEPING jobs in their home market.
This was just featured on a news program. It was stated that China is a bigger market than the US. The Chinese are buying more cars than Americans. GM sells more cars in China than the US.
This makes good business sense given that GM has to partner with a Chinese firm to build/sell in that market. However, this creates 0 US jobs and will most likely result in GM cars being imported into the US eliminating more US jobs. Not right away but it will happen.
This goes back to one of the previous threads about domestic vs, foreign. All car companies are global. There is no domestic vs. foreign. GM has no loyalty to the "buy American crowd". They will show the Chevy commercial with John Mellancamp while they invest billions in creating Chinese jobs. I am not bashing GM, this is just reality. Buyers need to purchase the vehicle that best fits their needs and not worry about domestic vs. foreign because the manufacturers don't care.
You don't see any issue with this regarding the brain drain and future quality of life you will get to enjoy (or not) once this takes place?
The fact that manufacturers don't care IS the problem. And people DO have to worry about domestic vs foreign if they value the state of their country and its economy. Domestic manufacturers should also be held to a higher standard when it comes to not only creating, but KEEPING jobs in their home market.
Manufacturers should not be the ones responsible for job creation or preservation of wealth in their home country, this job is for the policymakers.
And since our policy favors shipping jobs overseas, you cannot blame manufacturers that are trying to survive, for taking advantage of the situation.
If appropriate tariffs or taxes were imposed on all imported products, to eliminate the huge profit margins gained by manufacturing off-shore, we would find that many companies would simply start manufacturing here. The common scare tactic used in media is that these manufacturers would just leave NA market and sell their products else ware, this is simply B.S, we are still the biggest market for consumer goods, no manufacturer would be stupid enough to just abandon this market.
And since our policy favors shipping jobs overseas, you cannot blame manufacturers that are trying to survive, for taking advantage of the situation.
If appropriate tariffs or taxes were imposed on all imported products, to eliminate the huge profit margins gained by manufacturing off-shore, we would find that many companies would simply start manufacturing here. The common scare tactic used in media is that these manufacturers would just leave NA market and sell their products else ware, this is simply B.S, we are still the biggest market for consumer goods, no manufacturer would be stupid enough to just abandon this market.
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Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Manufacturers should not be the ones responsible for job creation or preservation of wealth in their home country, this job is for the policymakers.
Correct, and this has to be the case because corporations have no loyalty to their home market. That being said, I still feel manufacturers that claim to be "American" should be held to a higher standard (and this should be policy) than transplants are.
Quote:
And since our policy favors shipping jobs overseas, you cannot blame manufacturers that are trying to survive, for taking advantage of the situation.
Cisco is hardly "trying to survive", same is the case for Juniper, GE....etc any of the large manufacturers who off-shored to China to save money on labour. They are taking advantage of the situation alright, but that situation is increased profit margins and has nothing to do with survival.
Quote:
If appropriate tariffs or taxes were imposed on all imported products, to eliminate the huge profit margins gained by manufacturing off-shore, we would find that many companies would simply start manufacturing here. The common scare tactic used in media is that these manufacturers would just leave NA market and sell their products else ware, this is simply B.S, we are still the biggest market for consumer goods, no manufacturer would be stupid enough to just abandon this market.
Agreed, but nobody seems to be willing to make the effort to fix this system. Instead, they seem content to just watch the slide lamenting about how great things used to be and how everything is now made in China.
Manufacturers should not be the ones responsible for job creation or preservation of wealth in their home country, this job is for the policymakers.
Correct, and this has to be the case because corporations have no loyalty to their home market. That being said, I still feel manufacturers that claim to be "American" should be held to a higher standard (and this should be policy) than transplants are.
Quote:
And since our policy favors shipping jobs overseas, you cannot blame manufacturers that are trying to survive, for taking advantage of the situation.
Cisco is hardly "trying to survive", same is the case for Juniper, GE....etc any of the large manufacturers who off-shored to China to save money on labour. They are taking advantage of the situation alright, but that situation is increased profit margins and has nothing to do with survival.
Quote:
If appropriate tariffs or taxes were imposed on all imported products, to eliminate the huge profit margins gained by manufacturing off-shore, we would find that many companies would simply start manufacturing here. The common scare tactic used in media is that these manufacturers would just leave NA market and sell their products else ware, this is simply B.S, we are still the biggest market for consumer goods, no manufacturer would be stupid enough to just abandon this market.
Agreed, but nobody seems to be willing to make the effort to fix this system. Instead, they seem content to just watch the slide lamenting about how great things used to be and how everything is now made in China.
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