Generator storage & Maintenance ?

[fred9xx]

I have a 10 + year old 5KW Powermate w 9hp Vanguard. (Bought for Y2K scare.) Use has been very limited over the years, probably 3 or 4 times with it running 5 or 6 hours max each time. My maintenance/storage has been to keep 5 gallons in it with double dose of StaBil, run it for about 20 minutes every three months. After 2 years, I run it dry (runs over 6 hours) and change the oil, 5W30 synthetic. It starts on 1st or second pull. So power goes out yesterday before 8 AM. It starts right up but cuts out after less than an hour. I call Powermate help line a number of times but here's my main question to you:
One guy says Satbil is good for only 3 months. I've never heard that???

So I drain the gas, twice drop carb bowel, clean w carb cleaner. I'm no expert but I didn't see any varnish or parts in carb bowel. I never got it to run for more than 40 minutes. I did notice early on that the air filter was getting oil so I ran gen w/o air filter and notice oil dripping out of carb??Today our power is back on but I start gen anyway. It runs just fine til out of gas I put a little more gas in and ran it dry a second time.

So?
1.should I take it to my small engine repair guy for complete cleaning of carb and or "tune-up". (Or do you think I "fixed" it yesterday?)
2. Should my storage/maintenance approach change to either keep it dry or change gas more often?

Thanks

 

[JHZR2]

Id be concerned with the carb, but isnt it the jets as much as the bowl that one has to be worried about?

Ive heard that 3 month point. I wonder if the ethanol treatment is better? Having ethanol gas likely isnt doing you any favors.

It sure seems odd to me that it runs, but just for a little while. Almost like the inline fuel filter or something else looses its prime, perhaps because there isnt enough head on the fuel line to force flow.

Ill be interested to see what others say...

 

[raffy]

How old was the gas you had in it (when you had problems with it) and did it contain ethanol? Some vendors recommend using only 89 octane or higher gas (which apparently has less ethanol). I'd go a step further and only use 89 or higher gas that does not have ethanol at all. You can find such gas by looking at the website:

http://www.pure-gas.org/

I had somewhat similar issues with my tiller a while back. It had some fairly old (but treated wtih PRI-G stabilizer) gas and would not start, so I treated it with Amsoil Power Foam, let it sit overnight, and it fired right up the next day. I also put MMO into the tank as well, along with some fresher gas. I'm pretty sure that the ethanol in the gas was at least part of the problem.

After this episode, I have decided I will drain the tank, run the tiller's carb dry, fog the carb and engine with Power Foam or MMO, and store it that way for the entire off season. I store my generator in a similar manner (except that I haven't fogged it, might need to do that). I'd recommend the same regimen for your genny as well - it might be a pain but you want it to start and run reliably when the next power outage comes....

 

[2oldtommy]

Does the Vanguard have a low oil cutout? My 8hp B&S has a very close tolerance on the low oil cutout switch. That may be a possible cause of your cutout problem. FWIW-Oldtommy

 

[Donald]

I think you would be better off keeping the generator gas in a red gas can than the generator tank. I would continue to treat the gas with Stabil, but get the "new improved" forumla (still pink) that I believes handles E10 gas. Then every 6 months dump in your truck/car and refill & re-does with Stabil.. Your cost will be the cost for StaBil.

If you think the carb still has some varnish in the jet or float valve, then run generator with some fresh gas and blue StaBil which does a super job of cleaning things. If you get the fuel bowl off you can locate the jet and spray some carb cleaner into it with a straw.

As for what to do with the engine after you are done with it, I would run the engine dry, add maybe a pint of fresh two cycle fuel, run it for 5 minutes and shut it down.

 

[fred9xx]

THANK YOU for your all the helpful comments.

I will:
- run some fresh gas and blue StaBil through it,
- run it dry with a two cycle mix
- drain carb
- keep gas only in 5 gall can with StaBil and turn that over every 3 months.
Haven't decided yet if I'll use something like Power Foam or MMO.

I was told by Poweremate that, yes, my Vanguard does have a low oil cut off switch and one of them even gave my a B&S phone number suggesting I ask B&S how to over-ride/disable the sensor for that. But because the gen is running well today I didn't call them. (I'm saving the phone #.)
I can't find any pure gas near me. (I'm in and surrounded only by PC Blue states.)

Thank you again,

 

[car54]

This is the problem with gasoline equipment. It's a pain to store.

The best way is to drain the bowl completely dry and store it empty until you need it. If you need to store it with gas in it, be prepared to run the gas thru it every 6 months, it not more frequently. I store my gas generator and snow blower after letting them sit with the carb bowl off and gas cap off for a day or two so the gas completely evaporates 100%. nothing is left behind. always start right up when I add fresh gas.

I'm in love with my diesel genset. It can sit for years on end and starts instantly everytime.

 

[Slick17601]

Check the vent in the gas cap....if it runs well for 30-40 minutes I doubt its a carb problem. If it shuts off again, open the gas cap slowly and listen for a sucking sounds.

The low oil sensor is probably a better bet..if it shuts off, pull the plug and check for spark.

 

[Donald]

Also check your gas filter. If you have not replaced it recently then now is a good time. If you don't have one, install one. I posted the JD part number of a nice small one, the B&S one at Lowes/Home Depot is also good but slightly larger.

 

[FNFAL308]

The low oil shutdowns very rarely go bad and I highly doubt that's the prob.. "IF" suspect however just unplug it after of course checking to make sure your oil level is good which I'm sure you did.. If the unit runs with the sending unit unplugged you will know it's bad. "SOME" units require the engine be disassembled to replace so if it's bad just run w/out it and check your oil.. These will run quite a few hours with little or no oil use so it's no biggy.. BTW, if/when the Low Oil shutdown is bad the unit won't run for 30 min. but most likely only a few seconds if at all..

The prob is most likely the carb and it should be removed and properly cleaned. It's easy and there is no need to take it to a shop unless your DIY skills are lame.

The best way I have found to store a gen is to keep fuel in it with the addition of a double dose (2oz PER GAL) of SEAFOAM.
Stabill is also fine but NOTHING protects the fuel for long term.. I run the unit (w/seafoam) for 30-40 min., shut OFF the fuel and allow the engine to begin to sputter, when that starts flip on the choke ON to pull the remaining fuel from the carb, let the eng shut down from fuel starvation.
Repeat this process every three months (MAX) and you should be GTG.

I don't recommend removing the bowl, too much chance for the bowl gasket to get messed up rendering the unit useless until replaced. In a time of need I sure don't want to be out looking for parts. Also on MANY units access to the bowl is difficult at best with most units having their air boxes mounted in front of the carb.. There are also LOTS of units that have the carb held on by screws rather then a bolt making removal even more difficult not to mention risking the loss of a very important SPRING that holds the float assy & main jet in place..

 

[raffy]

Originally Posted By: fred9xx
I can't find any pure gas near me. (I'm in and surrounded only by PC Blue states.)


Wow, yeah, I see what you mean! Another reason for me to be glad I live in the South! Maybe there's some place, like a racetrack, near you that sells racing fuel (gasoline, of course) which is not shown in the pure-gas website? That stuff would be expensive, of course, but might be worth it depending on how much fuel you use for small engines.

Another option might be to check your local general aviation airport and buy some aviation gas (typically 100 octane low lead). Not 100% sure but I bet that stuff doesn't have ethanol for safety reasons. Pilots don't like it when their engines quit while they're flying! It's very expensive at about $5 to $6 per gallon, so you need to decide if that's worth it.

Whatever fuel you get, store it separately from the generator and keep its tank dry until you need it.

 

[fred9xx]

Slick,
You may be the winner. Yesterday as I was running it on a nice sunny day, I noticed the flat plastic gas tank expanding and sure enough the vent on the cap was clogged. After I cleaned it I could feel air pressure through it. I ran it for a few hours and I reported to the wife that it was fixed. She wasn't convinced so I poured 5 gallons into it and it ran dry after over 14 hours.

Donald,
I haven't found a gas filter. Where did you post the JD part #?

FNFAL,
I don't think it is the oil shut off b/c it ran very well yesterday and I didn't change any oil level.
Per above I have been keeping fuel in it for over 10 years. And if I was sure that the engine stopping was caused SOLELY by the clogged vent in gas cap, I think I would keep gas in it (but change it more frequently.)
I don't feel comfortable completely disassembling the carb but it has a brass nut at the bottom, is easy to get to and no lose springs so I'm ok with taking that off once to allow the gas to fully evaporate. I may not need to run it for a year or 2. I'm now thinking having it sit dry with the last fuel being the fresh 2 stage makes sense.

I now need a new 5 gall gas can. Seems the best choices are Blitz and NO-Leak. Agree?

Thanks again.

 

[FNFAL308]

Quote:
Whatever fuel you get, store it separately from the generator and keep its tank dry until you need it.


I'm perplexed by this??
Why is it BETTER to store fuel in a plastic jug then a plastic fuel tank? Why would I want to trip over a 5gal gas can all the time when I can have the same 5 gal in the occupied space the gen already takes up? If the fuel is in the gen then I know I always have fuel to run it right now if needed, if a storm is imminent then I can get more fuel during my prep.. Living as many years as I have in an area where HURRICANES are a very real threat I've found planning is always good..

As far as AV gas I would not suggest that.. AV gas usually runs a much higher octane which in an aircraft eng is clearly desirable.. However in a small eng the increased octane can actually cause probs of it's own.. These ignitions and combustion chambers are NOT designed around high octane fuels.. Running these fuels can cause detonation and increased heat neither of which are good..
Also RACE fuels are not only more volatile then standard fuels (of course) but they also don't have a very good shelf life..

 

[Samilcar]

Originally Posted By: FNFAL308

Why is it BETTER to store fuel in a plastic jug then a plastic fuel tank?


It's not the plastic fuel tank of the generator that you have to worry about, it's the rest of the fuel system downstream from the fuel tank. If old gas causes varnish to coat the inside of the fuel system, it causes problems. If old gas causes varnish to coat the inside of a plastic fuel tank (attached or unattached), it's less of a problem.

 

[FNFAL308]

Originally Posted By: fred9xx

FNFAL,
I don't think it is the oil shut off b/c it ran very well yesterday and I didn't change any oil level.
Per above I have been keeping fuel in it for over 10 years. And if I was sure that the engine stopping was caused SOLELY by the clogged vent in gas cap, I think I would keep gas in it (but change it more frequently.)
I don't feel comfortable completely disassembling the carb but it has a brass nut at the bottom, is easy to get to and no lose springs so I'm ok with taking that off once to allow the gas to fully evaporate. I may not need to run it for a year or 2. I'm now thinking having it sit dry with the last fuel being the fresh 2 stage makes sense.

I now need a new 5 gall gas can. Seems the best choices are Blitz and NO-Leak. Agree?

Thanks again.


As noted a bad tank vent can and will cause issues, if in doubt crack the cap when the eng starts to sputter and see if it comes back? You CAN do the carb if needed, these are easy.. If your bowl is held on by that brass bolt there are no springs inside (as noted). That was directed at a very common oft encountered carb on many current B&S engines and I was noting it as a point of caution..

I see NO advantage to running two stroke mix in this application but by all means if it makes one feel better it should cause no harm..
As far as gas cans since the gooberment mandated NO VENT cans they all sux.. Just try and fin d one that sux a bit less the the others.. FWIW I have 6 of the 5gal blitz no vent cans. Tey hold fuel and thats the best I can say.. They are a pain to pour since there is no vent but ow well.. The GUVMENT is always right ya know...

 

[FNFAL308]

Originally Posted By: Samilcar
Originally Posted By: FNFAL308

Why is it BETTER to store fuel in a plastic jug then a plastic fuel tank?


It's not the plastic fuel tank of the generator that you have to worry about, it's the rest of the fuel system downstream from the fuel tank. If old gas causes varnish to coat the inside of the fuel system, it causes problems. If old gas causes varnish to coat the inside of a plastic fuel tank (attached or unattached), it's less of a problem.


Uhhhh read my above post/s.. Just turn the fuel off.

Please explain how it's LESS PROBABLE?
While I'm all for sharing INFO, I think it only fair that info be correct and accurate..

BTW, I've mentioned this before but I work on this stuff EVERY day and have done so for almost 10 years.. It's my JOB to fix everyone's screw ups and TRUST me I've seen hundreds..

 

[JTK]

Originally Posted By: FNFAL308

I'm perplexed by this??
Why is it BETTER to store fuel in a plastic jug then a plastic fuel tank? Why would I want to trip over a 5gal gas can all the time



I'm not an OPE technical expert, but have been tinkering with this stuff for ~30yrs.

There's a definite advantage to storing gasoline in STORAGE containers as opposed to OPE fuel tanks.

Storage containers are completely sealed, where your OPE fuel systems are basically wide open to the atmosphere.

It's the open to atmosphere part that starts the clock ticking on fuel quality lifespan.

Joel

 

[eljefino]

^ And it's easier to rotate fuel. Fuel injected cars do better with slightly stale fuel, not to mention 5 gallons mixed in a 15 gallon car tank will do just fine.

OPs generator sounds like it has an EXTREMELY well sealed tank.

 

[Donald]

The JD part number for a small inline (1/4" fuel line) is AM107314. I only mention it as the body is smaller in diameter than the normal B&S inline filter. Some engines its just easier. You don't need clamps but I got the guy to toss in 2.

The reason to keep the fuel (still stabilized) in a red gas container is its easier to rotate the stuff into your truck or car than if it was in the generator tank. While I do stabilize all the fuel for OPE, I still rotate it every 6 months.

I was actually suggesting to run the carb and tank dry then add 1 pt of fresh 2 cycle fuel and run the engine for 5 min on that (which should not use up the 1 pt). The fuel system should stay just fine with the 2 cycle fuel.

 

[FNFAL308]

Originally Posted By: JTK
Originally Posted By: FNFAL308

I'm perplexed by this??
Why is it BETTER to store fuel in a plastic jug then a plastic fuel tank? Why would I want to trip over a 5gal gas can all the time



I'm not an OPE technical expert, but have been tinkering with this stuff for ~30yrs.

There's a definite advantage to storing gasoline in STORAGE containers as opposed to OPE fuel tanks.

Storage containers are completely sealed, where your OPE fuel systems are basically wide open to the atmosphere.

It's the open to atmosphere part that starts the clock ticking on fuel quality lifespan.

Joel


I'm not an OPE expert either but I'm not convinced.. Other then the Tank vent (which on some units can be closed)I fail to see the diff in a container vs the tank? Ever a non vented fuel tank is not "completely" sealed..
The Gen will be stored in the same environment as the container so no advantage there either..

"IF" there is any advantage I think it would be diminished by proper fuel use & rotation.. While fuel stored in the gen can/does go bad there are things that can be done to lengthen it's practical shelf life which has already been noted. Fuel stored in a container can also go bad I've seen it myself..

IMHO the "KEY" here is "practical" storage life.. There simply is nothing you can do nor is there any container you can purchase that will hold fuel for extended periods.. GOOD quality surplus jerry cans would be great but are difficult to find anymore.. While I choose not to store large volumes of fuel at my home I do make sure to have a good supply at the beginning of hurricane season. If not used by season end it goes into the mowers, or vehicles.. This way my "practical" storage life is only 6Mo's max.

To the O/P....
I neglected to mention my favorite fuel cans are the ones I bought for my dirt bikes.. These hold 5gal, have flex spouts, and are usually vented.. It's been a long time since I bought nine but a quick visit to your local bike shop may yield this type container..