Gassing up while the tanker is present

[javacontour]

I tend to agree. Most areas have gasoline that has 10% alcohol, so any water in the tank is absorbed and carried through safely as if you had a big bottle of dry-gas in there.

So while I might believe the stories from 20-30 years ago where a tanker arriving at the station stirred up water in the tank and those folks at the pumps got enough water to make problems. I have doubts that's as big a deal today for the myriad of reasons already given.

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: scurvy
There's rust, scale, debris, dead pigeons, water, Jimmy Hoffa's skeleton and who knows what else down there, but most of that is resting gently at the bottom of the tank below the pump's standpipe.


While it may be the safer play to assume that all tanks are like this, the reality is that most underground storage tanks today ARE very clean inside. You can usually tell just by looking at the service station if they're still using old steel tanks; I doubt anyone aware of the situation enough to be on BITOG would be filling there anyway. Most all of your more modern stations (Exxon, Shell, Valero, BP, Walmart, Sams, Costco, etc) are using modern double-wall fiberglass-reinforced plastic tanks. They have monitoring systems that indicate water in the tank. The station has an incentive to remove the water; it's less fuel they can sell.

This is one of those things that probably used to be an issue 30 years ago, but just doesn't exist to much, if any, degree today. It certainly doesn't hurt to simply drive to the next station, though.

It's like Mobil vs. Pennzoil (or whatever one's favorite brands are). Whatever helps you sleep at night!

 

[asiancivicmaniac]

People unknowingly do this all the time. If it was a problem then we'd here about the hundred, if not thousands, of cars that break down because of it.

 

[Fleetmon]

yup....gasoline, diesel, kerosene, and Av-gas is all filtered at the pump and before the delivery hose. IIRC, diesel filters handled about 10k gallons before needing changed.....snaller stations? Who knows....I think they are typically changed when customers start complaining of slow fills....of course by then the filter is in by-pass.

There is water and gunk in EVERY load of fuel...it all boils down to tank maintenance....pumping the tank out when needed and actually scrubbing the tanks every year or two depending on volume sold. (NOT scrubbing like you would a floor....they turbulence scrub tanks, filter the fuel, and dump it back in)

The absolute worst time to get fuel deliveries is on Mondays and Tuesdays since the tankers normally sit through the weekends empty and condensation builds up. Why do you think G/A pilots take a small sample of fuel each and every time before they go up? They're looking for water! On the ground no big deal but in the air, wreckers are few and far between.

 

[SuperDave456]

Not worried about it in modern stations.
Besides, I change my fuel filters regularly.

On my Father-In-Law's F-250 Turbo Diesel the manual says to change the filters every 36,000 miles. And it is pretty easy if you follow their instructions.
However, if you go 60,000 miles like he did, and run the truck out of gas. Then you will be paying the $3,000 to get your fuel system to replace like he did.

Take care of your gear. Change your filters, and don't run it out of gas.

 

[rationull]

Wow, quite a response. Lots of interesting info here.

I generally avoid this, but posted because I broke my rule this morning and filled up on the way into work with the tanker truck present. It didn't look like he was filling the tanks yet, but when I left I noticed that the hose was actually in the ground, just not visible where I'd been parked.

I guess I should stop worrying about it and get on with my life.


Originally Posted By: SuperDave456

Take care of your gear. Change your filters, and don't run it out of gas.


Easier said than done with most (all?) newer gasoline vehicles coming with in-take sock filters only with no service recommended.

 

[provels]

Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Was with my Dad during the gas crisis of '73-'74 when he filled up his VW while the tanker was filling the station tanks. Car died a mile later and wouldn't start.

Cause was water in the gas.

Coincidence?
More likely that the station tank was at the very BOTTOM at the time, where all the crud resides. Water is heavier than gas.

Though, these days with 10% ethanol, most of that water get sold along with the gas.

 

[kschachn]

Wow, and you know this how? Pigeons?!? How did the pigeons (plural) get in that tank?

This is nonsense. Tanks are regularly inspected. I worked for a place that inspected tanks for both individual stations and airport fuel facilities. We never, ever saw a dead pigeon in a tank. Modern fiberglass tanks have no rust or scale in them either.

Originally Posted By: scurvy
Just to expand on rationull's post, underground tanks are not spotless, pristine examples of shining white-glove cleanliness. There's rust, scale, debris, dead pigeons, water, Jimmy Hoffa's skeleton and who knows what else down there, but most of that is resting gently at the bottom of the tank below the pump's standpipe. When the tanker truck delivers fuel, it's not gently lowered down and laid to rest with all the other fuel, it's literally dumped right into the tank which stirs up all the detritus mentioned above. So now you have a small (but growing) volume of fuel that has years of accumulated flotsam being churned around.

Some say that filling up while this is happening means you are far more likely to suck some of that muck up through the pump standpipe than if you fill up while a tanker isn't dumping fuel - and I have to agree. But how much of that would actually make it into you tank...

Life is all about managing risk. It's easy enough for me to keep on driving to the next station or fill up the next day, so I try to make a point to pass on by.

 

[jdeare]

I've heard this rumor before but never had proof. I've filled up while the truck is there once or twice and not had a problem, but that doesn't mean much.

I guess what I'm really wondering is, how does all that stuff (theoretically) get in there in the first place? Scale and rust I guess I can see on a steel tank, but a dead pigeon? It's not like the tanks are sitting open all the time...

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: jdeare
I guess what I'm really wondering is, how does all that stuff (theoretically) get in there in the first place? Scale and rust I guess I can see on a steel tank, but a dead pigeon? It's not like the tanks are sitting open all the time...


As said prior, it doesn't. Not to a great degree anyway. What little might gets filtered at the dispenser anyway. Many would be surprised at how much a gasoline dispenser's filter resembles a spin-on automotive oil filter...

Interstate pump and tank

 

[kschachn]

More than a few times last year??? What kind of stations are you filling up at man? I recently opened the tank of my 18 year old BMW and there was no corrosion, no water no nothing. And here in WI we can only use E10. You need to find a better gas station.

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
You are getting E10 loaded with water all the time. Sometimes it separates (need less than 1% water) and you could get only E95 + water with NO GASOLINE. This has happened to me more than a few times last year - one more time and the Fit will be dead. If you run light throttle/ low rpm, a wideband o2 front sensor will comp for E95 but there is not enough mass fuel flow on a gas fuel engine to allow even 1/2 throttle at mid range (3500-4500) rpm without severe lean out. I managed a station in the 70's and there was always a few inches of water in the tank - That has to be 100s of gallons.

 

[TallPaul]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: TallPaul
Problem is that you pull in to the gas station and don't know if the tanker just left less than 5 minutes ago. If there is water in the tanks, would it still be stirred up from the filling activity after 5 minutes settling time?


In stations selling an ethanol blend, there is not likely to be a phase separation, meaning the water and gasoline likely aren't separate anyway.


Yes but what about the ethanol mandate going away: ethanol mandate gone.

 

[antiqueshell]

Why take chances. I drive right by that station if I see a tanker there. Sure it is possible that I just missed seeing one as I pull into a station, but like someone else said no reason not to minimize such potential for a problem.

I feel that the tanker driver's comments posted by someone earlier were probably worth heeding. He would know best wouldn't he?

 

[jdeare]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
As said prior, it doesn't. Not to a great degree anyway. What little might gets filtered at the dispenser anyway. Many would be surprised at how much a gasoline dispenser's filter resembles a spin-on automotive oil filter...

Interstate pump and tank


Yeah, I read that... I was just thinking theoretically. Even if the filters broke down or were bypassed or something, it would still take quite a bit for a pigeon to get into a tank.

I'm surprised at how cheap those gas pump filters are!

 

[BobsArmory]

Years before I went to work at GM I was in the environmental clean up business . I pulled probably 300 to 400 tanks personally. Every single one of them had junk in the bottom, anywhere from 1/4" to 6 or 8 inches of junk. Didn't matter if it was steel of fiberglass, high volume or low volume gas station. I N E V E R fill up while the tanker is there.

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
I've done it numerous times without issue. And as long as you're at a modern service station with modern tanks, there shouldn't be an issue. Modern fiberglass/plastic tanks don't have sediment at the bottom as older steel tanks may have had, and there should be very little water sitting at the bottom of these tanks to get mixed with fuel. Small enough, anyway, that when diluted across the typical 12,000 or 15,000 gallon storage tank capacity, it will not be an issue for your car.

 

[scurvy]

Originally Posted By: Fleetmon
I don't fill if I see a tanker hooked up


Yet another person who's worked around the tanks frequently who won't fill if a tanker is dropping fuel...

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Wow, and you know this how? Pigeons?!? How did the pigeons (plural) get in that tank?

This is nonsense. Tanks are regularly inspected. I worked for a place that inspected tanks for both individual stations and airport fuel facilities. We never, ever saw a dead pigeon in a tank. Modern fiberglass tanks have no rust or scale in them either.

It's mostly sarcasm ([sahr-kaz-uhm], noun) but I did once see a pigeon fall into an uncovered tank opening while the trucker was pulling down hoses from the truck rack. I only assume it died - I was laughing too hard to go see what happened to it.

I'll take note that you didn't have any objection to "...rust, scale, debris, ...water, Jimmy Hoffa's skeleton" so your tacit agreement that UST contain all of these things has been noted.

Modern fiberglass tanks do not generate rust or scale (nor did I say they do) but what about all the piping, pumps & valves in the pipeline, tank farms, refinery, loading rack or truck?

 

[Vikas]

In the last few years, most of the pumps around my area have had a downtime when they were dug up. My assumption is that town makes them replace the tanks periodically or may be they had old tanks which needed to be replaced. But I distinctly recall that at least one station had been dug up twice in last ten years. They were still open for the convenience store proving the theory that gas stations makes money not on the gas but on the junk food that they sell.

 

[Fleetmon]

The incentive to keep the water out of the UST to sell more fuel is absolutely wrong! They make maybe pennies per gallon of fuel sold whereas getting rid of the water and gunk in the bottom of the tank is not cheap....probably twice or three times as much per gallon as the meager profit they make on a gallon of fuel. The more customers that they can sell a watery mix to, the better their fuel profits. And, it's not that they're trying to screw anyone over but it is very expensive to get rid of the water/gunk mix....it's not like you can dump it in a drain somewhere!

The ONLY people that make money selling fuel are the refiners (who invest a large portion of their profits into finding more dino reserves in order to harvest more fuel) and the governments via taxes....the local fuel distributer (aka Costco, Giant, Shell, etc, etc) makes VERY little per gallon sold therefore they rely on volume of sales.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: Fleetmon
The incentive to keep the water out of the UST to sell more fuel is absolutely wrong!


I manage retail USTs for a living, and it matters. I said, "so they can sell more gas" to be quick and simple, but it's more complex than that.

Water in the fuel affects the quality of the fuel. In low enough concentrations, it's rarely a problem (and passes through every system, including the end user's engine, without issue). But if in a high enough concentration, it can negatively impact many of the station's systems. It can encourage microbial growth in the fuel. Filters can be degraded and plugged, worsening the retail experience for the customer. They can receive fuel that causes their engine to run poorly, which again worsens the retail experience for the customer. Poor retail experiences generally mean fewer repeat customers.

If a separate phase of water is detected at the bottom, it can be removed as a maintenance procedure, without taking the entire tank down for cleaning. This is how we prefer to keep water out of the system; the automatic tank gauges are monitored regularly, backed up with fuel-finding paste on the tank stick.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
In the last few years, most of the pumps around my area have had a downtime when they were dug up. My assumption is that town makes them replace the tanks periodically or may be they had old tanks which needed to be replaced.


It's more likely that the state made them replace the tanks. Most service stations use groundwater monitoring as a form of inventory control, and this is usually reportable to the state regulator's office. Releases to the environment usually mean expensive and costly downtime, to include tank removal and replacement if the station elects to continue selling fuel. As you noted, they sometimes don't, and convert into a simple convenience store.

 

[cjcride]

Noticed the fire extinguisher compartment on a tanker that was filling the station tanks and asked him if it was a big one. He chuckled and said "if she starts burnin I'm runnin". From that day on if I ever see the Tanker Driver run away I'm doing the same.