Fram filters

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: Keto
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
That's nice, you'll fit right in with all the other self proclaimed internet engineers and experts here.


I am a self-proclaimed Engineer! My Alma mater proclaims it, the State DCA licensing board proclaims it... its proclaimed a lot!

What are your self-proclaimed qualifications?

Originally Posted By: KCJeep

In an oil filter, not so much.


In your imaginary world, perhaps. Metal end-caps typically provide a static seal with minimal assembly pressure, vs cardboard "fiber" which would require more substantial pressure to maintain a proper seal, like gasket material would normally be subjected to. In the 6018's I've disassembled, there appeared to be seepage between the intake and exhaust channels, particularly on the edge where the bypass assembly fits into the core. The 7317's had similar characteristics.


K


If you're a self proclaimed engineer, then you would know that saying you work with hydraulics and therefore know about engine filtration would be like a person saying they are a gun expert because they fish.

Hydraulic systems and engine oil: Two different things.. I would hope you'd never use a Fram engine filter in a hydraulic system. One uses much higher PSI.

Still not sure how you get the word cardboard out of fiber? Its a paper cellulose/ synthetic media blend. Much better than materials than its same tiered competition uses IMO.

By all means, use what you want.. Just don't make false claims especially if you prove to know nothing about them.

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: Keto
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
How long ago did you see these issues?


The 6018's were several years ago, its a motorcycle filter. I havent looked at one in a while myself. To my knowledge, they are still the same design. One of the motorcycle sites I frequent keeps tabs on such things, so I will check it out again. There are pics, so I will acquire them later today.

The 7317's were just last year, Honda car in this case. Other than overall dimensions, the design is nearly identical to the 6018. It was a poorly made filter.


K


The issue still might have been addressed with it being several years ago. A family friend told me he has seen several collapsed Fram filters, but this was back in the 70's. He said he wouldn't have used them then, but has no issues using them now.

He just buys whatever's on sale.

 

[Keto]

Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Hydraulic systems and engine oil: Two different things..


In the scope of the term, you are thinking of the purely mechanical term used for actuation systems.

The term 'hydraulics' in the field is NOT limited to such things, and covers a variety of concepts dealing with fluid action system. One of the hydraulic test devices in our inventory is specifically used for testing flow and pressure for filters. It can be rigged to test car oil filters, and while we (my employer) dont test 'car' filters, I know of a few independent labs that use it just for that purpose.

So yeah, don't make false claims especially if you prove to know nothing about them.


K

 

[jonnythan]

Originally Posted By: Keto
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
If you truly understood what an endcap on an oil filter was supposed to do you'd realize it's pretty much a non issue


My background is in Mechanical Design. I have experience with hydraulic test equipment.

Cardboard "fiber"

end-caps are an issue.

No way in he|| is one of those filters going in any vehicle I own, not after what I've seen with PH6018's and PH7317's. Theyre horrible filters IMHO.

If you are comfortable with them, by all means use them. I will not.


K


Most of my friends are engineers; some have PhDs in engineering and some are PEs.

None of them would ever say "My background is in Mechanical Design." I presume that if you were actually educated and employed as an engineer, you'd say "I am an engineer." I have no idea what "my background is in mechanical design" actually means. I suspect it doesn't really mean anything, and whatever background you have is completely irrelevant to the design and functioning of oil filters.

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: Keto
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Hydraulic systems and engine oil: Two different things..


In the scope of the term, you are thinking of the purely mechanical term used for actuation systems.

The term 'hydraulics' in the field is NOT limited to such things, and covers a variety of concepts dealing with fluid action system. One of the hydraulic test devices in our inventory is specifically used for testing flow and pressure for filters. It can be rigged to test car oil filters, and while we (my employer) dont test 'car' filters, I know of a few independent labs that use it just for that purpose.

So yeah, don't make false claims especially if you prove to know nothing about them.


K


You just said you (your employer) doesn't test car filters, but that you know people that do? Did I read this right?

 

[Keto]

Originally Posted By: dlundblad
You just said you (your employer) doesn't test car filters, but that you know people that do? Did I read this right?


'Officially', no

However, we are certified to provide training on said equipment, and do so for companies that do test them. Its a complete pain in the butt to switch the equipment from 'engine oil' family of fluids to glycol-ether to silicone, etc etc etc. Usually labs have 1 type (family) of base-stock they deal with, and thats all that machine will be used for.


K

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: Keto


I am a self-proclaimed Engineer! My Alma mater proclaims it, the State DCA licensing board proclaims it... its proclaimed a lot!


I don't care. You could be an engineer, a florist or a high school drop out for all I know, it's the internet. FYI quickly resorting to statements of that sort is frequently an indicator that you're actually full of it and will arouse suspicion here.

You do realize that there are engineers who work for Fram who designed (and Fram later patented) fiber endcaps, right? They apparently don't agree with you either.

Originally Posted By: Keto
Metal end-caps typically provide a static seal with minimal assembly pressure, vs cardboard "fiber" which would require more substantial pressure to maintain a proper seal, like gasket material would normally be subjected to. I dont see that in these filters. In the 6018's I've disassembled, there appeared to be seepage between the intake and exhaust channels, particularly on the edge where the bypass assembly fits into the core. The 7317's had similar characteristics.

K


Now there at last is something to discuss beyond "fiber end caps are bad".

I agree with you that is a possibility, as it would be for most manufacturer's assemblies of bypass set ups. However even the orange can has a way above average efficiency rating for an entry level filter (about 96% at 20 microns IIRC) so if there is any "seepage" it would have to be extremely minimal to maintain that high level of efficiency.

Also, the Fram filters I've used and cut had a notable compression mark in the endcap from the bypass assembly, and overlap marks on the ADBV, suggesting a good seal. Unlike many other filters, both the bypass and the ADBV on the fiber endcap Frams overlap the endcap at the center tube by about an eighth of an inch, most likely to further deter any seepage or leak through. Given the high efficiencies of the fiber endcap Fram filters (the Tough Guard is rated at a stunning 99% at 20 microns) it apparently works.

Your thoughts?

 

[Keto]

I am always happy to have a civil conversation!

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
I agree with you that is a possibility, as it would be for most manufacturer's assemblies of bypass set ups. However even the orange can has a way above average efficiency rating for an entry level filter (about 96% at 20 microns IIRC) so if there is any "seepage" it would have to be extremely minimal to maintain that high level of efficiency.


It depends on how the media was tested. Was the media efficiency tested within the fully assembled product? OR, was the media tested by itself in a jig? The efficiency rating can certainly be true either way, but knowing how that rating was arrived at tells the 'rest of the story'.

Originally Posted By: KCJeep

Also, the Fram filters I've used and cut had a notable compression mark in the endcap from the bypass assembly, and overlap marks on the ADBV, suggesting a good seal. Unlike many other filters, both the bypass and the ADBV on the fiber endcap Frams overlap the endcap at the center tube by about an eighth of an inch, most likely to further deter any seepage or leak through. Given the high efficiencies of the fiber endcap Fram filters (the Tough Guard is rated at a stunning 99% at 20 microns) it apparently works.

Your thoughts?


Its been a little while, but from what I remember... On the 6018's I've opened, the new/unused ones had mild compression marks on the bypass side, and none on the ADBV side. Though on the latter side, there was a small lip on the core channel in which the ADBV would rest on. That I believe gave it had a more substantial seal than the bypass side.

On the used filters, the compression mark was completely gone. It was clear there was sufficient saturation of the material to make it pliable/loose. I suspect that a filter used enough where loading upon the media was on the higher-end of the spec'd threshold, but not at the level where bypass comes into play, oil is likely making it passed that seal point.

On the last 3 used 6018's I've seen, the media had 1 or more tears after low mileage, kind of making the seal of the end-caps a moot point, lol.


K

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Keto
I am always happy to have a civil conversation!

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
I agree with you that is a possibility, as it would be for most manufacturer's assemblies of bypass set ups. However even the orange can has a way above average efficiency rating for an entry level filter (about 96% at 20 microns IIRC) so if there is any "seepage" it would have to be extremely minimal to maintain that high level of efficiency.


It depends on how the media was tested. Was the media efficiency tested within the fully assembled product? OR, was the media tested by itself in a jig? The efficiency rating can certainly be true either way, but knowing how that rating was arrived at tells the 'rest of the story'.


My understanding is the whole filter assembly is tested in a bench testing machine to obtain all the parameters defined in the ISO 4548-12 test standard.

Similar to what was done here, which only looked at the flow vs delta-p of the filter. The whole filter was mounted on the bench tester and tested as it would be mounted on an engine. Bench testing machine would do the real-time upstream and down stream particle counts to determine beta ratio.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...451#Post1619451

 

[Keto]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
My understanding is the whole filter assembly is tested in a bench testing machine to obtain all the parameters defined in the ISO 4548-12 test standard.


If they are after 4548-12, I believe you are correct, it needs to be the final assembly (I'll have to go pull the ISO doc, dont remember off the top of my head). The 'full' rigs that can do ISO 4548-12 are fairly elaborate, and they are pricey. Though I have seen 'cheaper' test environments spread out over multiple rigs, each with a specific set of test parms in mind.

Depends on what their goal is otherwise, some arent necessarily after 4548-12. For some, they'll test media, then the whole assembly, looking for various differentials (best way). Others will only bother to test the final assembly (still gets the job done), and some are only interested in the media, for any number of reasons (questionable and valid alike).


K

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: Keto

Its been a little while, but from what I remember... On the 6018's I've opened, the new/unused ones had mild compression marks on the bypass side, and none on the ADBV side. Though on the latter side, there was a small lip on the core channel in which the ADBV would rest on. That I believe gave it had a more substantial seal than the bypass side.

On the used filters, the compression mark was completely gone. It was clear there was sufficient saturation of the material to make it pliable/loose. I suspect that a filter used enough where loading upon the media was on the higher-end of the spec'd threshold, but not at the level where bypass comes into play, oil is likely making it passed that seal point.


I've cut very few virgin filters, I hate to waste them I run them first. But here's some good pics of a PH3980 I ran 5k and cut. You can clearly see the impression on the endcap from the bypass assembly.




I don't believe there was an impression on the ADBV side, but the ADBV was so firmly implanted over the endcap it actually had to be pulled away and small bits of fiber from the endcap were stuck to it so I'm not suspecting a poor seal there either.




Originally Posted By: Keto
On the last 3 used 6018's I've seen, the media had 1 or more tears after low mileage, kind of making the seal of the end-caps a moot point, lol.
K


You've mentioned the 6018's a few times. I'm not familiar with that one is it an unusual application? Media tears in Frams are quite rare around here, at least recently. I am convinced their media is stronger than most, which is how they get away with so little of it in some applications. I have definitely noticed not all orange cans are created equal media wise either. There are some I will run and some I won't, even though they seem to hold up fine. I really like the PH3980's and PH3600's, yet I'll readily acknowledge a PH16 looks like a kindergarten craft project when cut.

PH3980 again, looks good to me.



A pair of 3600's I cut. (I got into the endcaps with the hacksaw, they were fine otherwise).

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix

My understanding is the whole filter assembly is tested in a bench testing machine to obtain all the parameters defined in the ISO 4548-12 test standard.


That is my understanding as well. To support that notion, you'll notice that manufacturers who advertise efficiencies usually quote certain part numbers in tandem. Since we're talking about Fram, they advertise the orange can at 95% efficiency and add the following:

"FRAM Group testing of average filter efficiency of PH8A, 3387A, and 4967 or equivalent..."

So it would certainly seem the testing is done on the complete filter, otherwise there would be no reason to mention part numbers the PH series all use the same media.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix

My understanding is the whole filter assembly is tested in a bench testing machine to obtain all the parameters defined in the ISO 4548-12 test standard.


That is my understanding as well. To support that notion, you'll notice that manufacturers who advertise efficiencies usually quote certain part numbers in tandem. Since we're talking about Fram, they advertise the orange can at 95% efficiency and add the following:

"FRAM Group testing of average filter efficiency of PH8A, 3387A, and 4967 or equivalent..."

So it would certainly seem the testing is done on the complete filter, otherwise there would be no reason to mention part numbers the PH series all use the same media.


Notice that Fram uses 3 filters that are somewhat representing a the "small, medium and larger" range of their filters during the ISO testing. Where as Purolator just references the largest filter they make (30001) during IOS testing.

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Originally Posted By: Keto

Its been a little while, but from what I remember... On the 6018's I've opened, the new/unused ones had mild compression marks on the bypass side, and none on the ADBV side. Though on the latter side, there was a small lip on the core channel in which the ADBV would rest on. That I believe gave it had a more substantial seal than the bypass side.

On the used filters, the compression mark was completely gone. It was clear there was sufficient saturation of the material to make it pliable/loose. I suspect that a filter used enough where loading upon the media was on the higher-end of the spec'd threshold, but not at the level where bypass comes into play, oil is likely making it passed that seal point.


I've cut very few virgin filters, I hate to waste them I run them first. But here's some good pics of a PH3980 I ran 5k and cut. You can clearly see the impression on the endcap from the bypass assembly.




I don't believe there was an impression on the ADBV side, but the ADBV was so firmly implanted over the endcap it actually had to be pulled away and small bits of fiber from the endcap were stuck to it so I'm not suspecting a poor seal there either.




Originally Posted By: Keto
On the last 3 used 6018's I've seen, the media had 1 or more tears after low mileage, kind of making the seal of the end-caps a moot point, lol.
K


You've mentioned the 6018's a few times. I'm not familiar with that one is it an unusual application? Media tears in Frams are quite rare around here, at least recently. I am convinced their media is stronger than most, which is how they get away with so little of it in some applications. I have definitely noticed not all orange cans are created equal media wise either. There are some I will run and some I won't, even though they seem to hold up fine. I really like the PH3980's and PH3600's, yet I'll readily acknowledge a PH16 looks like a kindergarten craft project when cut.

PH3980 again, looks good to me.



A pair of 3600's I cut. (I got into the endcaps with the hacksaw, they were fine otherwise).





Is this the fl400s equivalent?

Looks very straight nonetheless. I cant wait to see how my TG8A holds up. Very very impressed so far. Always quiet on start ups.

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Originally Posted By: Keto

Its been a little while, but from what I remember... On the 6018's I've opened, the new/unused ones had mild compression marks on the bypass side, and none on the ADBV side. Though on the latter side, there was a small lip on the core channel in which the ADBV would rest on. That I believe gave it had a more substantial seal than the bypass side.

On the used filters, the compression mark was completely gone. It was clear there was sufficient saturation of the material to make it pliable/loose. I suspect that a filter used enough where loading upon the media was on the higher-end of the spec'd threshold, but not at the level where bypass comes into play, oil is likely making it passed that seal point.


I've cut very few virgin filters, I hate to waste them I run them first. But here's some good pics of a PH3980 I ran 5k and cut. You can clearly see the impression on the endcap from the bypass assembly.




I don't believe there was an impression on the ADBV side, but the ADBV was so firmly implanted over the endcap it actually had to be pulled away and small bits of fiber from the endcap were stuck to it so I'm not suspecting a poor seal there either.




Originally Posted By: Keto
On the last 3 used 6018's I've seen, the media had 1 or more tears after low mileage, kind of making the seal of the end-caps a moot point, lol.
K


You've mentioned the 6018's a few times. I'm not familiar with that one is it an unusual application? Media tears in Frams are quite rare around here, at least recently. I am convinced their media is stronger than most, which is how they get away with so little of it in some applications. I have definitely noticed not all orange cans are created equal media wise either. There are some I will run and some I won't, even though they seem to hold up fine. I really like the PH3980's and PH3600's, yet I'll readily acknowledge a PH16 looks like a kindergarten craft project when cut.

PH3980 again, looks good to me.



A pair of 3600's I cut. (I got into the endcaps with the hacksaw, they were fine otherwise).





Is this the fl400s equivalent?

Looks very straight nonetheless. I cant wait to see how my TG8A holds up. Very very impressed so far. Always quiet on start ups.


No the 3980 fits GM and is a PF52 equivalent. It is however as far as I can tell the same media cartridge as the PH3600 which is the FL-400s equivalent. But the 3600 (also pictured one above) has a bypass and different threads. But both perform very well for me and the two are my favorite orange cans. Both have more pleats than most orange Frams and good spacing generally.

I'm running a TG8A right now as well, great starts for me with TG's I've cut some before but never a TG8A looking forward to it but not expecting any surprises.