Forget Mileage, Which Maximizes Engine Life?

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Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
But there isn't low oil pressure on start-up, in fact it's too high because the o, even a 20wt oil, is too thick as I mentioned previously.


Takes a while to build oil pressure on cold starts.
 
I'm no expert, in fact this is the first car I've owned. Here to learn. Ultimate goal is to save money by keeping a 10-yr old car running, reduce wear, and improved FE is a bonus
smile.gif
 
probably half of the people in this forum have at least one vehicle which is over 10 years and 100K miles who have done nothing but follow manufacturer's schedule
 
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
But there isn't low oil pressure on start-up, in fact it's too high because the o, even a 20wt oil, is too thick as I mentioned previously.


Takes a while to build oil pressure on cold starts.

And the thicker the oil the longer it takes. With a high VI 0W-20, OP build-up is virtually instantaneous even at 0C. A hugh advantage.
 
It seems to me, based on things I have learned here, to protect best at startup you want an oil that adheres to all the surfaces when not running. That would be a Group V, ester based oil, right? I also understand, in order to get the 0w performance, the oils have ester based oils in their blend.

Eons ago we added STP to the oil to get that stickiness on start up. I had the best results with my 65 Plymouth 225 Slant Six with 20w-20 oil and a can of STP. That minimized oil usage and I was getting 26 mpg back in the 55 mph days after the first Arab oil embargo in 1973. No one would recommend either one now. Still, that Plymouth did pretty well. After I was done with it, both my brothers and both of my brother's in law used it up to around 200k miles or so.

Things change and we come to this site to learn more. I don't look for complete agreement, but I try to listen and learn.
 
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Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
And the thicker the oil the longer it takes. With a high VI 0W-20, OP build-up is virtually instantaneous even at 0C. A hugh advantage.


Maybe the manufacturers should return to straight weights. To those that think that having thin oil at a cold startup is of no advantage, then why have manufacturers used viscosity recommendations based on ambient temperatures for decades?

Well, CATERHAM, it looks like your light oil/high VI experiment has been for nothing. I can help set you up with some 15w40 dino if you like, and when you're used to that, we'll move you to 20w-50 or some straight weights.
 
Originally Posted By: tig1
With the stable you have I would not use the 10-40 or 0-20 you mentioned. I would use M1 5-30 in all those engines with the exception that there is a bad leak or other serious engine problems.


yes, 5w30 of most any manufacturer that suits your preference and price range at the store of your choice will do.
 
It is just logic and common knowledge that a thinner less viscous fluid flows quicker and more efficently at lower temps anything contrary to that is just wrong. As thin as it may be i would prefer to have mineral oil in my crankcase at 0c than honey ie..a 10/15/20w oil at least i would have some lubrication going on and not rings moving up and down at 1500 rpm dry even for 10-15 seconds.I know for a fact going down from a 10w-30 to 5w30 has done wonders for the start up ticking my truck used to emit for as i said 10-15 sec,so there is no doubt a thinner oil at start up is better. I would go to an 0w oil in a second if i was a synthetic user but as i am not all my vehicles are on a 5w. As for the 20w/30w on the other end run either according to mfg specs and you'll have no problems.I will have to agree and argue that thinner at start up, even if it's 45c thats still a cold start for an engine, is better.
 
Originally Posted By: 4ever4d
It is just logic and common knowledge that a thinner less viscous fluid flows quicker and more efficently at lower temps anything contrary to that is just wrong. As thin as it may be i would prefer to have mineral oil in my crankcase at 0c than honey ie..a 10/15/20w oil at least i would have some lubrication going on and not rings moving up and down at 1500 rpm dry even for 10-15 seconds.I know for a fact going down from a 10w-30 to 5w30 has done wonders for the start up ticking my truck used to emit for as i said 10-15 sec,so there is no doubt a thinner oil at start up is better. I would go to an 0w oil in a second if i was a synthetic user but as i am not all my vehicles are on a 5w. As for the 20w/30w on the other end run either according to mfg specs and you'll have no problems.I will have to agree and argue that thinner at start up, even if it's 45c thats still a cold start for an engine, is better.


^^^^ This. Should be a sticky, its so well put.

I seek out 0W oils, but if i "have" to use a 5W then i can be assured that 0W wasnt available for wen i select an oil.

Only sticky wicket there is when the 5W is, in fact, thinner than the 0W oil, even at startup. That is the gray area.

And, correct, it makes "little ror no difference" at that point. i can not think of a SINGLE 5W oil, even a thickish SM dino 5W and they are all SN now anyway (Supertech for example) that gives BAD startup flow. Even GC with its SL 0W-30 gives "acceptable" start flow and thats an old but good oil.
 
5w30 conventional for the winter in the ones you mentioned maybe 5w30 hm in the summer if there are leaks or oil consumption.

In previous years we have had people in the winter and some in the summer that decided thin oil that the engine manufacturer recommended was not good and they knew better, that is why i know them because i rebuilt their engines..
use what belongs in there the company that designed your engine may know more than you.
 
Originally Posted By: BISCUT
If you spend 20-50k on a car/truck clearly you have some degree of confidence in the engineer's who designed your vehicle. Why wouldn't you have the same confidence in the oil weight those same engineers sepc'd for your vehicle??



It is when those engineers "spec" OW-20 Oil in the US manual. Then they spec 5W-40 In the Aussie manual and I loose all confidence in them, or 20W oils, or something.... I AM SO CONFUSED!
 
Originally Posted By: ammolab
Originally Posted By: BISCUT
If you spend 20-50k on a car/truck clearly you have some degree of confidence in the engineer's who designed your vehicle. Why wouldn't you have the same confidence in the oil weight those same engineers sepc'd for your vehicle??



It is when those engineers "spec" OW-20 Oil in the US manual. Then they spec 5W-40 In the Aussie manual and I loose all confidence in them, or 20W oils, or something.... I AM SO CONFUSED!


THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!
 
Originally Posted By: Gebo
Originally Posted By: ammolab
Originally Posted By: BISCUT
If you spend 20-50k on a car/truck clearly you have some degree of confidence in the engineer's who designed your vehicle. Why wouldn't you have the same confidence in the oil weight those same engineers sepc'd for your vehicle??



It is when those engineers "spec" OW-20 Oil in the US manual. Then they spec 5W-40 In the Aussie manual and I loose all confidence in them, or 20W oils, or something.... I AM SO CONFUSED!


THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!


In the case of Ford when they began specifying 5W-20 in the EXACT same engines as they required 5w30 in the year prior, it's CAFE plain and simple... I's also proved by the back specking some engines from 5w30 to 5W-20, no mechanical changes were necessary... Ignore the naysayers and just use a little common sense...
 
The mistake in your logic is that while fuel economy may be the motivation in the move to lighter oils, that doesn't automatically translate into increased wear. The move to lighter oils is equally due to improvements in motor oils where a 20wt oil today will have the in service viscosity equal if not greater to 5w30s of 15 or 20 years ago.
Furthermore what happens statistically with a pool of millions of vehicles is absolutely meaningless when it comes down to an individual and how they operate their own car or truck.
I've explained how one fine tunes an oil's viscosity to their own application. And those that do, inevitably realize that the safety margin running a 20wt oil is indeed very high.
What causes increased engine wear is aways abuse, either through ignorance or deliberately and under such conditions a somewhat heavier oil may allow an engine to last longer. But does that apply to the conscientious owner who maintains his vehicle correctly and doesn't ignore service clues like high coolant temp's because he allowed a small coolant leak to go unresolved? Not in the slightest.

To minimize engine wear, run the lightest oil recommended bt the manufacturer, maintain the vehicle corectly and the engine will outlast the rest of the car.
 
^^excellent point. Oils have gotten awfully good in the last few years.

Another example of crazy specs is Chrysler. Their Hemi specs run from 20w in the passenger car and light truck 5.7's to 30W in the heavier duty trucks to 40w in the SRT models.

Nearly identical engines with differing duty cycles.
 
Originally Posted By: ammolab
It is when those engineers "spec" OW-20 Oil in the US manual. Then they spec 5W-40 In the Aussie manual and I loose all confidence in them, or 20W oils, or something.... I AM SO CONFUSED!


Well, sometimes, perhaps, it's the marketing people causing confusion, not the engineers. Just because the Australian or European divisions of a manufacturer specify a 40 weight there, while the North American divisions (and even Japanese divisions) specify a 20 weight doesn't mean that the 20 weight is the wrong choice.

Look at it this way. Why do we have 20 weights specified in Canada for the same engines that are so speced in the United States? It's not because we have cold winters. It's not because of CAFE, since that's an American regulatory regime. It's probably because it's convenient. It's quite likely because oil companies' product lines are very, very similar across the United States and Canada. The API/ILSAC system is well entrenched in both countries, too. Even logistically speaking, it makes sense for the manufacturers. Cars made in the States stay there and go to Canada, and the same applies with cars made here. One factory fill, one service recommendation. Then, there's one less thing to tweak in owner's manuals and service manuals.

The diversity in climate may even play a role, too. You know darn well that if a manufacturer allowed for a 20w-50 under appropriate weather conditions (i.e. Texas in the summer), someone is going to run 20w-50 in a Saskatchewan winter, and then grumble at the manufacturer after they spin their bearings. Also, in North America, if 5w-40 was the preferred grade for every vehicle, we're going to have people (including me) balk at the price of synthetic for an application that really doesn't require it. So, the manufacturer could extend the OCI, then someone who doesn't like synthetic prices runs 10w-40 dino for way too long.

It's also kind of hard to go for an extended drain if one has to switch viscosities across the seasons.
 
But that does make sense. How an engine is used is the single biggest factor in how thick an oil you need to run in it.

So what's the solution? If you drive conservatively run the lightest oil recommended for the engine family even if it's the SRT model as in the case of Chrysler. If you use a lot of WOT with a hot engine use the 30wt oil. If you take the car to the track run the 0W-40.
These are only approximations and I don't want to sound like a broken record but the ideal solution is to install an oil pressure gauge and learn how to use it. Why? Because it's your own onboard viscometer that tells you how thick your oil is every second the engine is running. This way it becomes impossible to deliberately run an oil that is too light for the way you personally drive. That's right I said impossible. So you can run your favourite light 0W-20 oil (in your SRT) and you'll know the conditions under which the oil may get too thin and you simply take it easy or run a slightly heavier oil.

The thing is most people are not into motor oil, don't want to think about motor oil and have no intention of paying any attention to an OP gauge. They simply want to be told what oil is safe to run in their vehicle so they don't have to think about it no matter how they drive. That's why you can get a wide range of recommended oil grades from a manufacturer for the same engine in different applications, countries, climates etc. They are trying to predict how the vehicle will typically be used which is no easy task.
 
Originally Posted By: Gebo
I could care less about maximizing my MPG. I want to use whatever weight oil
that will help my engines last the longest. I am a little old school and am just
skeptical enough to believe a 10w-40 or a 20w-50 may protect my engine more than a 0w-20. Of course, you say "ignorant" as well.

With all the pressure on the auto manufacturers to constantly increase gas mileage, have we gotten to the point of using really thin oils and shortening the life of our engines in hopes of increasing our miles per gallon to satisfy our government?



I see you live in VA. I live on the coast in SC. We rarely have the temperature dip below freezing in the winter. As you can see the experts disagree. I am far from an expert, and a little "old school" like you. I see the arguments about the thinner oil flowing quicker, but I have seen engines turned over with the valve cover off with 20W50 in the winter, and that oil is in your face before you can think about it. But that is anecdotal.
What I do know is that I drive cars for a long time. I currently have over 272,000 miles on mine. I use 10W30 M1 HM, and it runs as smooth as a sewing machine. No leaks, and it uses about a quart or so every 3,000 miles. I use the same type of oil in my wife's and my children and my grandchildren's cars and I have used 10W30 so since I began driving. Anecdotal, I know, but it has worked for me for a long time, and I see no reason for me to change.
 
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