Better gas milage=less friction=less wear?
Forget Mileage, Which Maximizes Engine Life?
- Thread starter Gebo
- Start date
- Status
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2006
- Messages
- 29,558
It`s a give and take. Thicker oil-better protection/less mileage,thinner oil-less protection/better mileage (to a certain degree of course).
dnewton3
Staff member
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
It`s a give and take. Thicker oil-better protection/less mileage,thinner oil-less protection/better mileage (to a certain degree of course).
UOA evidence to the contrary.
Even though this is a PCMO thread, just peruse some of the HDEO UOAs and see where my 10w-30 HDEOs protect every bit as well as 15w40s. And not just my UOAs, but others as well.
As long as you use a lube that meets your OEM specs, your equipment lifespan is not greatly affected by a small grade change one way or another. Statisitically, the data proves that. Opinions can be found here; Facts and Data can be found in the UOA forum!
I can PROVE my thinner HDEO does every bit as well as thicker HDEOs.
Look over many of the PCMO UOAs and you'll see the same evidence.
Now, I will add one caveot ...
Any engine that is older and spec'd for a think fluid may not be spec'd for a thinner fluid and therefore will not do well on a thin fluid. But as long as you stay within OEM spec's there is typically no wear difference, statistically.
It`s a give and take. Thicker oil-better protection/less mileage,thinner oil-less protection/better mileage (to a certain degree of course).
UOA evidence to the contrary.
Even though this is a PCMO thread, just peruse some of the HDEO UOAs and see where my 10w-30 HDEOs protect every bit as well as 15w40s. And not just my UOAs, but others as well.
As long as you use a lube that meets your OEM specs, your equipment lifespan is not greatly affected by a small grade change one way or another. Statisitically, the data proves that. Opinions can be found here; Facts and Data can be found in the UOA forum!
I can PROVE my thinner HDEO does every bit as well as thicker HDEOs.
Look over many of the PCMO UOAs and you'll see the same evidence.
Now, I will add one caveot ...
Any engine that is older and spec'd for a think fluid may not be spec'd for a thinner fluid and therefore will not do well on a thin fluid. But as long as you stay within OEM spec's there is typically no wear difference, statistically.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: tig1
With the stable you have I would not use the 10-40 or 0-20 you mentioned. I would use M1 5-30 in all those engines with the exception that there is a bad leak or other serious engine problems.
I definitely agree with the 5-30 for all those cars..Gebo you have 7 very nice vehicles.
With the stable you have I would not use the 10-40 or 0-20 you mentioned. I would use M1 5-30 in all those engines with the exception that there is a bad leak or other serious engine problems.
I definitely agree with the 5-30 for all those cars..Gebo you have 7 very nice vehicles.
Originally Posted By: Highline9
Im running 5w40 in my rides am I increasing engine life?
Yes. You are keeping the engine clean and guarding against viscosity breakdown from fuel dilution(you never know!).
Im running 5w40 in my rides am I increasing engine life?
Yes. You are keeping the engine clean and guarding against viscosity breakdown from fuel dilution(you never know!).
Originally Posted By: Highline9
Im running 5w40 in my rides am I increasing engine life?
Yes. You are keeping the engine clean and guarding against viscosity breakdown from fuel dilution(you never know!).
Some 5w30's will do the same.
Im running 5w40 in my rides am I increasing engine life?
Yes. You are keeping the engine clean and guarding against viscosity breakdown from fuel dilution(you never know!).
Some 5w30's will do the same.
I got the new car itch for several reasons and ended up trading in the 04 Odyssey EX-L for a 12 Pilot LX. I like having some of the EX stuff left off, even though there are some nice features in the more expensive models.
In any case, in the Odyssey I used M-1 5w30 after about three oil changes with Honda 5w-20. The exception was one time with M-1 5w-20 in 2007. That was the only time the engine consumed oil. So, I stuck with the 5w30.
Now the new Pilot says to use Honda 0w-20 synthetic blend or full synthetic. I am not totally convinced, although that is what it will get for the next three free oil changes, assuming the tech can be trusted to use it. On the other hand, I believe the ow-20 oil is a better formulation that probably provides better overall protection. Still, I am in Arizona now and it can get on the warm side here for about 5 months of the year. I would really like to be fully assured the 0w-20 is the best protection.
I am not really interested in what engineers think they say. These guys are not the gods some seem to think they are. I know this because I have two sons who are mechanical engineers, and darn good ones. But they will tell you, they are still learning and still doing things wrong.
I am told the passages in new cars are really tight and the finer oil is needed for that. I suspect that is nonsense too. Especially since it came from the salesman. I believe it is about fuel mileage. I am okay with that if the oil will actually fully protect and cool my engine.
In any case, in the Odyssey I used M-1 5w30 after about three oil changes with Honda 5w-20. The exception was one time with M-1 5w-20 in 2007. That was the only time the engine consumed oil. So, I stuck with the 5w30.
Now the new Pilot says to use Honda 0w-20 synthetic blend or full synthetic. I am not totally convinced, although that is what it will get for the next three free oil changes, assuming the tech can be trusted to use it. On the other hand, I believe the ow-20 oil is a better formulation that probably provides better overall protection. Still, I am in Arizona now and it can get on the warm side here for about 5 months of the year. I would really like to be fully assured the 0w-20 is the best protection.
I am not really interested in what engineers think they say. These guys are not the gods some seem to think they are. I know this because I have two sons who are mechanical engineers, and darn good ones. But they will tell you, they are still learning and still doing things wrong.
I am told the passages in new cars are really tight and the finer oil is needed for that. I suspect that is nonsense too. Especially since it came from the salesman. I believe it is about fuel mileage. I am okay with that if the oil will actually fully protect and cool my engine.
If those are the vehicles you are "responsible for" somebody (or, someBODIES) took exceptionally good care of them in the past.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that, excluding the possibility that all of the engines were recently completely rebuilt, all have (excepting the Acura) over 100K miles on them.
Someone (SomeONES?) took great care of them. The proof is there to see.
Personally, in VA I doubt if there are any drastic climatic extremes that would warrant the use of either 0W-20 or 20W-50 from a longivity sake.
The factory recommendation of 5w30 for all is a pretty good starting point. Personally I would also consider a 10W-30 (GASP!) simply because they all have in excess of 100K miles.
Bottom line: set up an OCI schedule for each vehicle based upon th type of NORMAL use, i.e. shorter for towing and a lot of stop & go miles, longer for highway use, etc.
Then I would pick just one weight: then buy either the 5w30 or 10W-30 oil whenever on sale by the case (with rebates, of course) plus filters (either when on sale or as part of an "oil change special") and stock up. Dino, SemiSyn, Syn: all of it. Try to have at least one extra filter available for each vehicle.
NAPA often has filter specials for 50% (or more!) off. The very common "$12 for 5+ quarts and a filter" is a good deal, especially if there is no rebate to deal with. And $8.99 for the same deal is even better, IMHO.
Then just change the oil & filters on schedule. Well-maintained vehicles (as all of yours would seem to be) just flat last.
And they can last a long time, too!
I really don't believe that one SM/GF-4 oil is really any less capable of protecting an engine than another, excluding longer-than-normal (whatever THAT means) OCI's. Nor that you need Dextros in every GM vehicle now that there is a Dextros spec.
You could go to COSTCO and buy 6 cases of Chevron Supreme 5 or 10W-30 and use it for all those vehicles and really never see a major OIL-RELATED problem, nor should you expect one. A broken timing chain, failed water pump, underhood fire, etc. may all result in a serious problem but you can be confident it won't be because it was 5 vs. 10W-30, or PYB vs. VWB, or SynPower or AMSOIL, etc.
Just my humble opinion.
Cheers!
p.s. You could also go with a HDEO 15w40 in 55 gal. drums and never see an oil-related problem, either. One delivery and a trip to NAPA for a list of filers could keep you going for year or two.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that, excluding the possibility that all of the engines were recently completely rebuilt, all have (excepting the Acura) over 100K miles on them.
Someone (SomeONES?) took great care of them. The proof is there to see.
Personally, in VA I doubt if there are any drastic climatic extremes that would warrant the use of either 0W-20 or 20W-50 from a longivity sake.
The factory recommendation of 5w30 for all is a pretty good starting point. Personally I would also consider a 10W-30 (GASP!) simply because they all have in excess of 100K miles.
Bottom line: set up an OCI schedule for each vehicle based upon th type of NORMAL use, i.e. shorter for towing and a lot of stop & go miles, longer for highway use, etc.
Then I would pick just one weight: then buy either the 5w30 or 10W-30 oil whenever on sale by the case (with rebates, of course) plus filters (either when on sale or as part of an "oil change special") and stock up. Dino, SemiSyn, Syn: all of it. Try to have at least one extra filter available for each vehicle.
NAPA often has filter specials for 50% (or more!) off. The very common "$12 for 5+ quarts and a filter" is a good deal, especially if there is no rebate to deal with. And $8.99 for the same deal is even better, IMHO.
Then just change the oil & filters on schedule. Well-maintained vehicles (as all of yours would seem to be) just flat last.
And they can last a long time, too!
I really don't believe that one SM/GF-4 oil is really any less capable of protecting an engine than another, excluding longer-than-normal (whatever THAT means) OCI's. Nor that you need Dextros in every GM vehicle now that there is a Dextros spec.
You could go to COSTCO and buy 6 cases of Chevron Supreme 5 or 10W-30 and use it for all those vehicles and really never see a major OIL-RELATED problem, nor should you expect one. A broken timing chain, failed water pump, underhood fire, etc. may all result in a serious problem but you can be confident it won't be because it was 5 vs. 10W-30, or PYB vs. VWB, or SynPower or AMSOIL, etc.
Just my humble opinion.
Cheers!
p.s. You could also go with a HDEO 15w40 in 55 gal. drums and never see an oil-related problem, either. One delivery and a trip to NAPA for a list of filers could keep you going for year or two.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
UOA evidence to the contrary.
Even though this is a PCMO thread, just peruse some of the HDEO UOAs and see where my 10w-30 HDEOs protect every bit as well as 15w40s. And not just my UOAs, but others as well.
As long as you use a lube that meets your OEM specs, your equipment lifespan is not greatly affected by a small grade change one way or another. Statisitically, the data proves that. Opinions can be found here; Facts and Data can be found in the UOA forum!
I can PROVE my thinner HDEO does every bit as well as thicker HDEOs.
There we go again using UOA's to determine engine condition instead of what they were meant for.
IIRC and FWIW, BuickGN had a great looking UOA - with half a piston in the oil pan...
UOA evidence to the contrary.
Even though this is a PCMO thread, just peruse some of the HDEO UOAs and see where my 10w-30 HDEOs protect every bit as well as 15w40s. And not just my UOAs, but others as well.
As long as you use a lube that meets your OEM specs, your equipment lifespan is not greatly affected by a small grade change one way or another. Statisitically, the data proves that. Opinions can be found here; Facts and Data can be found in the UOA forum!
I can PROVE my thinner HDEO does every bit as well as thicker HDEOs.
There we go again using UOA's to determine engine condition instead of what they were meant for.
IIRC and FWIW, BuickGN had a great looking UOA - with half a piston in the oil pan...
I've heard 80% of wear occurs at start-up. Based on this, I would think a thinner oil would reduce that type of wear.
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2006
- Messages
- 29,558
Originally Posted By: Zaedock
BuickGN had a great looking UOA - with half a piston in the oil pan...
Yeah,I remember that too. I think it was right before his engine was literally un-runnable,and he did the UOA just for kicks,and it came back almost perfect. I miss his posts. Whatever happened to him?
BuickGN had a great looking UOA - with half a piston in the oil pan...
Yeah,I remember that too. I think it was right before his engine was literally un-runnable,and he did the UOA just for kicks,and it came back almost perfect. I miss his posts. Whatever happened to him?
Originally Posted By: Jason64
I've heard 80% of wear occurs at start-up. Based on this, I would think a thinner oil would reduce that type of wear.
Exactly. You'll get lower engine wear with a 20wt oil, particularly a high VI 0W-20 than a 30wt oil in an engine that specifies both grades.
The error in logic that the thicker is better crowd make is that at operating temperature a lighter oil somehow provides less protection and therefore increased wear but that's simply untrue. All a thicker oil provides is a greater safety margin in the event of very much higher oil temp's than what normally occurs.
Running a heavier than necessary oil is like wearing a belt and suspenders. Yes you virtually elliminating the changes of your pants falling down but when was the last time you had your pants fail to stay up just wearing a belt? Exactly, never.
I've heard 80% of wear occurs at start-up. Based on this, I would think a thinner oil would reduce that type of wear.
Exactly. You'll get lower engine wear with a 20wt oil, particularly a high VI 0W-20 than a 30wt oil in an engine that specifies both grades.
The error in logic that the thicker is better crowd make is that at operating temperature a lighter oil somehow provides less protection and therefore increased wear but that's simply untrue. All a thicker oil provides is a greater safety margin in the event of very much higher oil temp's than what normally occurs.
Running a heavier than necessary oil is like wearing a belt and suspenders. Yes you virtually elliminating the changes of your pants falling down but when was the last time you had your pants fail to stay up just wearing a belt? Exactly, never.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Jason64
I've heard 80% of wear occurs at start-up. Based on this, I would think a thinner oil would reduce that type of wear.
Exactly. You'll get lower engine wear with a 20wt oil, particularly a high VI 0W-20 than a 30wt oil in an engine that specifies both grades.
No, it's incorrect. Start up wear is due to a combination of fuel washing oil from rings, corrosive combustion byproducts condensing on cold liners, and oil not hot enough to activate anti-wear compounds. I has nothing to do with oil viscosity.
Have you read any technical literature on startup wear?
Originally Posted By: Jason64
I've heard 80% of wear occurs at start-up. Based on this, I would think a thinner oil would reduce that type of wear.
Exactly. You'll get lower engine wear with a 20wt oil, particularly a high VI 0W-20 than a 30wt oil in an engine that specifies both grades.
No, it's incorrect. Start up wear is due to a combination of fuel washing oil from rings, corrosive combustion byproducts condensing on cold liners, and oil not hot enough to activate anti-wear compounds. I has nothing to do with oil viscosity.
Have you read any technical literature on startup wear?
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
It`s a give and take. Thicker oil-better protection/less mileage,thinner oil-less protection/better mileage (to a certain degree of course).
UOA evidence to the contrary.
Even though this is a PCMO thread, just peruse some of the HDEO UOAs and see where my 10w-30 HDEOs protect every bit as well as 15w40s. And not just my UOAs, but others as well.
To reliably measure engine wear you can ether:
1. Use radioactive tracers.
2. Tear down engine and measure/weigh parts
3. Weigh/analyze wear particles in oil filter.
I haven't seen that posted on BITOG, have you?
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
It`s a give and take. Thicker oil-better protection/less mileage,thinner oil-less protection/better mileage (to a certain degree of course).
UOA evidence to the contrary.
Even though this is a PCMO thread, just peruse some of the HDEO UOAs and see where my 10w-30 HDEOs protect every bit as well as 15w40s. And not just my UOAs, but others as well.
To reliably measure engine wear you can ether:
1. Use radioactive tracers.
2. Tear down engine and measure/weigh parts
3. Weigh/analyze wear particles in oil filter.
I haven't seen that posted on BITOG, have you?
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2006
- Messages
- 29,558
And I`ll also contribute startup wear to cold engine parts that have not yet expanded with heat,therefore when an engine`s not up to it`s peak operating temp,the internals havent "settled" into their optimal operating specs yet. Thin oil preventing startup wear is nothing more than propaganda.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Jason64
I've heard 80% of wear occurs at start-up. Based on this, I would think a thinner oil would reduce that type of wear.
Exactly. You'll get lower engine wear with a 20wt oil, particularly a high VI 0W-20 than a 30wt oil in an engine that specifies both grades.
No, it's incorrect. Start up wear is due to a combination of fuel washing oil from rings, corrosive combustion byproducts condensing on cold liners, and oil not hot enough to activate anti-wear compounds. I has nothing to do with oil viscosity.
Have you read any technical literature on startup wear?
Nope, but perhaps I should. The thinner oil and more free-flowing oil is on start-up, the quicker critical engine parts can be lubricated. That must count for something, no?
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Jason64
I've heard 80% of wear occurs at start-up. Based on this, I would think a thinner oil would reduce that type of wear.
Exactly. You'll get lower engine wear with a 20wt oil, particularly a high VI 0W-20 than a 30wt oil in an engine that specifies both grades.
No, it's incorrect. Start up wear is due to a combination of fuel washing oil from rings, corrosive combustion byproducts condensing on cold liners, and oil not hot enough to activate anti-wear compounds. I has nothing to do with oil viscosity.
Have you read any technical literature on startup wear?
Nope, but perhaps I should. The thinner oil and more free-flowing oil is on start-up, the quicker critical engine parts can be lubricated. That must count for something, no?
Originally Posted By: Jason64
I've heard 80% of wear occurs at start-up. Based on this, I would think a thinner oil would reduce that type of wear.
And every engine manufacturer would agree with you.
The fact remains that even the lightest 20wt oil doesn't obtain it's optimum viscosity until the oil has reached a temperature of atleast 75C for any application.
When an oil is too thick, even a 20wt oil, the risk of cavitation damage is always present if the engine is revved excessively high.
I've heard 80% of wear occurs at start-up. Based on this, I would think a thinner oil would reduce that type of wear.
And every engine manufacturer would agree with you.
The fact remains that even the lightest 20wt oil doesn't obtain it's optimum viscosity until the oil has reached a temperature of atleast 75C for any application.
When an oil is too thick, even a 20wt oil, the risk of cavitation damage is always present if the engine is revved excessively high.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Jason64
I've heard 80% of wear occurs at start-up. Based on this, I would think a thinner oil would reduce that type of wear.
And every engine manufacturer would agree with you.
"heard" "I would think" "agree"
How about some facts rather than feelings?.
I've seen some literature that states that heavier oil DECREASES start up wear when there is low oil pressure.
Originally Posted By: Jason64
I've heard 80% of wear occurs at start-up. Based on this, I would think a thinner oil would reduce that type of wear.
And every engine manufacturer would agree with you.
"heard" "I would think" "agree"
How about some facts rather than feelings?.
I've seen some literature that states that heavier oil DECREASES start up wear when there is low oil pressure.
But there isn't low oil pressure on start-up, in fact it's too high because the o, even a 20wt oil, is too thick as I mentioned previously.
- Status
Similar threads
