Ford Eco-boost vs silverado 5.3
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Originally Posted By: Volvohead
While I do think the AFM issue was resolved by '11, if it's that much of a concern, you can disable it without ECM remapping, using this simple device:
http://www.rangetechnology.com/pages/v8
Yep, that is what I used first, then I moved up to a diablo tuner. And no, the AFM thing was never totally resolved. Even some 2014's are already starting to show problems associated with it. It is not a well thought out function. They keep coming up with stuff that adds complexity, with very little, if any, corresponding reward. Sure, turbos add complexity, but give more reward. Like getting to peak torque at a lower RPM which improves towing ability. Why should I have to rap my 5.3L V8 into 4000+ rpm territory to get the peak torque that a Ford ecoboost V6 gets at 2800 RPM? Not many people run around the country side cruising at 4000 or more RPM towing a trailer. But 2500 is not unrealistic.
I guess it just boggles my mind why any vehicle engine is naturally aspirated any more. With technology advances of the last 2 decades, just about every engine should have turbo or supercharger. The only way to truly get the most efficiency out of these engines and make some sort of an attempt to start getting out the same 'ol mpg rut that most pickups and large SUV's have had for so long. Heck, I got better mpg out of a 1998 454 V8 in a Chevy 2500 pickup than I get from my 2013 5.3L 1500 pickup.
While I do think the AFM issue was resolved by '11, if it's that much of a concern, you can disable it without ECM remapping, using this simple device:
http://www.rangetechnology.com/pages/v8
Yep, that is what I used first, then I moved up to a diablo tuner. And no, the AFM thing was never totally resolved. Even some 2014's are already starting to show problems associated with it. It is not a well thought out function. They keep coming up with stuff that adds complexity, with very little, if any, corresponding reward. Sure, turbos add complexity, but give more reward. Like getting to peak torque at a lower RPM which improves towing ability. Why should I have to rap my 5.3L V8 into 4000+ rpm territory to get the peak torque that a Ford ecoboost V6 gets at 2800 RPM? Not many people run around the country side cruising at 4000 or more RPM towing a trailer. But 2500 is not unrealistic.
I guess it just boggles my mind why any vehicle engine is naturally aspirated any more. With technology advances of the last 2 decades, just about every engine should have turbo or supercharger. The only way to truly get the most efficiency out of these engines and make some sort of an attempt to start getting out the same 'ol mpg rut that most pickups and large SUV's have had for so long. Heck, I got better mpg out of a 1998 454 V8 in a Chevy 2500 pickup than I get from my 2013 5.3L 1500 pickup.
Originally Posted By: whip
Originally Posted By: millerbl00
So if paint is peeling off the aluminum body panels hows the aluminum suspension gonna hold up?
Walk me thru this one. How does paint not adhering to body panels correlate to suspension parts not holding up?
Interesting note: years ago one of my employees drove a truck over a large decorative rock. Blew open the oil pan, ripped off the driveshaft, damaged the transmission pan, ripped off the exhaust, etc. Thank god the engine shut off instantly at the loss of oil pressure or the idjit may have kept trying to drive over it! The point is it went right under one of those cheap aluminum suspension components we keep hearing about. A Forged lower control arm.
It barely scratched it. No alignment issues or bent parts despite 9000 pounds of loaded 3500 LWB van grinding away at it.
Maybe the resonance breaks rock?
Originally Posted By: millerbl00
So if paint is peeling off the aluminum body panels hows the aluminum suspension gonna hold up?
Walk me thru this one. How does paint not adhering to body panels correlate to suspension parts not holding up?
Interesting note: years ago one of my employees drove a truck over a large decorative rock. Blew open the oil pan, ripped off the driveshaft, damaged the transmission pan, ripped off the exhaust, etc. Thank god the engine shut off instantly at the loss of oil pressure or the idjit may have kept trying to drive over it! The point is it went right under one of those cheap aluminum suspension components we keep hearing about. A Forged lower control arm.
It barely scratched it. No alignment issues or bent parts despite 9000 pounds of loaded 3500 LWB van grinding away at it.
Maybe the resonance breaks rock?
Well its not on his Model T so it must be junk.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: whip
Originally Posted By: whip
millerbl00 said:
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: meep
?not sure what you mean? above folks are discussing turbo gassers as new territory for trucks. I'm saying we have that tech in industry. my concern is based more of ford's recent build history. am I missing something? what moving target?
I'll give you the spitting plugs, but issues with the two former PSD's were International's problem, not Ford's. That's why we have Scorpion right now (Ford's in-house diesel).
I didn't know that -- I was thinking of the just-adequate cylinder head strength and the HPOP o-ring problem-- seemingly "ok-ish" faults if not for the cost to fix--- on otherwise a wonderful motor. I thought those were on Ford?
I'm certainly not bashing--- I love the look and feel of those trucks and would gladly own one, but it'd be a cautious purchase with their history. And the F-150 is my first choice for a personal steer, so I'm def not anti-ford. I'm more anti-bling....
Originally Posted By: meep
?not sure what you mean? above folks are discussing turbo gassers as new territory for trucks. I'm saying we have that tech in industry. my concern is based more of ford's recent build history. am I missing something? what moving target?
I'll give you the spitting plugs, but issues with the two former PSD's were International's problem, not Ford's. That's why we have Scorpion right now (Ford's in-house diesel).
I didn't know that -- I was thinking of the just-adequate cylinder head strength and the HPOP o-ring problem-- seemingly "ok-ish" faults if not for the cost to fix--- on otherwise a wonderful motor. I thought those were on Ford?
I'm certainly not bashing--- I love the look and feel of those trucks and would gladly own one, but it'd be a cautious purchase with their history. And the F-150 is my first choice for a personal steer, so I'm def not anti-ford. I'm more anti-bling....
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
The head bolts were International spec
and were the same on the VT365 (international version of the PSD 6.0L). Same goes for the HPOP IIRC. And yes, the price was disgusting, as is the case for most diesel repairs unfortunately. Upgraded head bolts (or studs) were fitted in '05 IIRC.
There was a revised branch tube adapter, a variety of ECM reflashes to try and deal with the injector problems (ultimately the "quiet idle" was deleted at some point). EGR cooler failures were also common (especially on non-stock trucks), I've seen them done on school buses a number of times. Same goes with injector failures.
One of the issues that might be Ford specific was the IDM failure, but I'm not sure on that.
There was a revised branch tube adapter, a variety of ECM reflashes to try and deal with the injector problems (ultimately the "quiet idle" was deleted at some point). EGR cooler failures were also common (especially on non-stock trucks), I've seen them done on school buses a number of times. Same goes with injector failures.
One of the issues that might be Ford specific was the IDM failure, but I'm not sure on that.
Keep laughing. If you don't want to hear the negative I'll go away until you post that you new tech has problems and you a crying about it.
Doubt you will see your new trucks running in 10 years. Much less 30 + years like some old designs.
Glad to see everyone has an open mind...
Doubt you will see your new trucks running in 10 years. Much less 30 + years like some old designs.
Glad to see everyone has an open mind...
You have a very closed mind.
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Just stick to your model T's and go away. It holds up fine and has been in use for decades, as have aluminum body panels.
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Just stick to your model T's and go away. It holds up fine and has been in use for decades, as have aluminum body panels.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: millerbl00
Keep laughing. If you don't want to hear the negative I'll go away until you post that you new tech has problems and you a crying about it.
Doubt you will see your new trucks running in 10 years. Much less 30 + years like some old designs.
Glad to see everyone has an open mind...
The use of aluminum isn't new tech though
Keep laughing. If you don't want to hear the negative I'll go away until you post that you new tech has problems and you a crying about it.
Doubt you will see your new trucks running in 10 years. Much less 30 + years like some old designs.
Glad to see everyone has an open mind...
The use of aluminum isn't new tech though
Not just talking about aluminum. It's Turbo's, superchargers, VVT, DI, etc, etc, All being used together.
It's no use. Learn the hard way.
It's no use. Learn the hard way.
It would be an interesting design exercise to see how much longevity could be built into a modern truck, and what would be compromised. Lose a mpg or two and 50hp with a simpler engine, another $1000 in better materials with decent corrosion resistance? Maybe a manual transmission would make up for much of the cost?
My buddy was over with his 60 year old tractor last night and it gets you thinking.
It's too bad Mahindra or some other upstart couldn't market a 30 year truck, it would put some pressure on the mainstream guys to atleast consider long term servicability.
My buddy was over with his 60 year old tractor last night and it gets you thinking.
It's too bad Mahindra or some other upstart couldn't market a 30 year truck, it would put some pressure on the mainstream guys to atleast consider long term servicability.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: millerbl00
Not just talking about aluminum. It's Turbo's, superchargers, VVT, DI, etc, etc, All being used together.
It's no use. Learn the hard way.
OK, superchargers have been used on cars since the days of Packard and Duesenberg. Turbo's have been in use for at least as long
Again, not new.
VVT? Well, common implementations started in the 90's. So it isn't new now either.
DI? Mercedes was using DI in the 50's IIRC.
So none of these technologies are new by themselves. The least common of the bunch is DI, the others have been used (successfully) in the past few decades, some in combination with each other (IE, forced induction in combination with VVT), with no real issues to report.
It is the DI implementations on top of these things that have raised a few questions about things like fuel dilution. But these issues also seem to vary wildly by manufacturer.
Ultimately, implementations like Ford's have been on the scene for a while now with nothing much to report other than a few growing pains (like the intercooler bug). Given the track record of forced induction DI diesels, as long as the engine is built properly (which it seems to be), then they really aren't the gamble you seem to think they are.
Not just talking about aluminum. It's Turbo's, superchargers, VVT, DI, etc, etc, All being used together.
It's no use. Learn the hard way.
OK, superchargers have been used on cars since the days of Packard and Duesenberg. Turbo's have been in use for at least as long
Again, not new.
VVT? Well, common implementations started in the 90's. So it isn't new now either.
DI? Mercedes was using DI in the 50's IIRC.
So none of these technologies are new by themselves. The least common of the bunch is DI, the others have been used (successfully) in the past few decades, some in combination with each other (IE, forced induction in combination with VVT), with no real issues to report.
It is the DI implementations on top of these things that have raised a few questions about things like fuel dilution. But these issues also seem to vary wildly by manufacturer.
Ultimately, implementations like Ford's have been on the scene for a while now with nothing much to report other than a few growing pains (like the intercooler bug). Given the track record of forced induction DI diesels, as long as the engine is built properly (which it seems to be), then they really aren't the gamble you seem to think they are.
Sorry, burn me once shame on me. Burn me twice not gonna take the chance right now.
What about Galvanic corrosion? That may occur where there is both metallic contact and an electrolytic bridge between different metals.
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: whip
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: whip
millerbl00 said:
Originally Posted By: millerbl00
What about Galvanic corrosion? That may occur where there is both metallic contact and an electrolytic bridge between different metals.
That is indeed an issue in a marine environment, and occasionally even in long term normal use.
But I routinely keep trucks for 2-300k miles here in fleet use, and we just don't experience those issues. Not at all.
Our newest fleet models are all 2013's and are fantastic when compared to even 06-08 models. Our newer vans get nearly DOUBLE the gas mileage! The difference is all good to us, and we use our trucks to earn our daily bread, not just joy riding here...
What about Galvanic corrosion? That may occur where there is both metallic contact and an electrolytic bridge between different metals.
That is indeed an issue in a marine environment, and occasionally even in long term normal use.
But I routinely keep trucks for 2-300k miles here in fleet use, and we just don't experience those issues. Not at all.
Our newest fleet models are all 2013's and are fantastic when compared to even 06-08 models. Our newer vans get nearly DOUBLE the gas mileage! The difference is all good to us, and we use our trucks to earn our daily bread, not just joy riding here...
I'll never understand why these threads seem to bother people on such a personal level.
Buying a vehicle should be completely objective. Brand loyalty just indicates either a lack of intelligence, or willful ignorance.
Buying a vehicle should be completely objective. Brand loyalty just indicates either a lack of intelligence, or willful ignorance.
Originally Posted By: D189379
I'll never understand why these threads seem to bother people on such a personal level.
Buying a vehicle should be completely objective. Brand loyalty just indicates either a lack of intelligence, or willful ignorance.
I agree, but only to 90% -- one thing that has bugged me lately is how the controls between my VW and my Toyota's are different. For instance, in my VW I tap the wiper down for one wipe; in the toyota's you tap up. Cruise control is in different spots (left on VW, stalk on the right for toyota). Personally, I think my VW is vastly better set up; but when 2 out of 3 do it differently... Since I think the Toyota's are sticking around my house for a while to come I'm leaning strongly towards another Toyota (to replace the Jetta) only on this one basis.
Sorta makes sense I think. As I become an appliance driver I kinda want my appliances to all work alike. If what they say is true (that all the vehicles these days are just as good as the others) then why not standardize the driver interface? [Not across makers, just across one's personal fleet.]
I'll never understand why these threads seem to bother people on such a personal level.
Buying a vehicle should be completely objective. Brand loyalty just indicates either a lack of intelligence, or willful ignorance.
I agree, but only to 90% -- one thing that has bugged me lately is how the controls between my VW and my Toyota's are different. For instance, in my VW I tap the wiper down for one wipe; in the toyota's you tap up. Cruise control is in different spots (left on VW, stalk on the right for toyota). Personally, I think my VW is vastly better set up; but when 2 out of 3 do it differently... Since I think the Toyota's are sticking around my house for a while to come I'm leaning strongly towards another Toyota (to replace the Jetta) only on this one basis.
Sorta makes sense I think. As I become an appliance driver I kinda want my appliances to all work alike. If what they say is true (that all the vehicles these days are just as good as the others) then why not standardize the driver interface? [Not across makers, just across one's personal fleet.]
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: D189379
I'll never understand why these threads seem to bother people on such a personal level.
Buying a vehicle should be completely objective. Brand loyalty just indicates either a lack of intelligence, or willful ignorance.
I agree, but only to 90% -- one thing that has bugged me lately is how the controls between my VW and my Toyota's are different. For instance, in my VW I tap the wiper down for one wipe; in the toyota's you tap up. Cruise control is in different spots (left on VW, stalk on the right for toyota). Personally, I think my VW is vastly better set up; but when 2 out of 3 do it differently... Since I think the Toyota's are sticking around my house for a while to come I'm leaning strongly towards another Toyota (to replace the Jetta) only on this one basis.
Sorta makes sense I think. As I become an appliance driver I kinda want my appliances to all work alike. If what they say is true (that all the vehicles these days are just as good as the others) then why not standardize the driver interface? [Not across makers, just across one's personal fleet.]
I have to agree with this. For years all of the cars I have owned have had the cruise control buttons on the right hand side of the steering wheel. On my F150 and my wifes Fusion, Ford changed them to the left side. Almost 2 years of driving my truck everyday and I still caught up in a learning curve, I try to set the cruise and end up changing a radio station and wonder why I am decelerating instead of maintaining speed.
Originally Posted By: D189379
I'll never understand why these threads seem to bother people on such a personal level.
Buying a vehicle should be completely objective. Brand loyalty just indicates either a lack of intelligence, or willful ignorance.
I agree, but only to 90% -- one thing that has bugged me lately is how the controls between my VW and my Toyota's are different. For instance, in my VW I tap the wiper down for one wipe; in the toyota's you tap up. Cruise control is in different spots (left on VW, stalk on the right for toyota). Personally, I think my VW is vastly better set up; but when 2 out of 3 do it differently... Since I think the Toyota's are sticking around my house for a while to come I'm leaning strongly towards another Toyota (to replace the Jetta) only on this one basis.
Sorta makes sense I think. As I become an appliance driver I kinda want my appliances to all work alike. If what they say is true (that all the vehicles these days are just as good as the others) then why not standardize the driver interface? [Not across makers, just across one's personal fleet.]
I have to agree with this. For years all of the cars I have owned have had the cruise control buttons on the right hand side of the steering wheel. On my F150 and my wifes Fusion, Ford changed them to the left side. Almost 2 years of driving my truck everyday and I still caught up in a learning curve, I try to set the cruise and end up changing a radio station and wonder why I am decelerating instead of maintaining speed.
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