filter with 4 inlet holes for 4.6L V8!

[ARCOgraphite]

Which bypass? pump or filter?

Filter bypass is after the 4 holes.

If that v8 doesn't have HLA then no way the crank drills, cam piddlers nd chain squirter flow more oil than those 4 holes would flow at 45 psig. Most of the oil pressure is bypassed at the pump proper as the oil is at loggerheads in the engine not in the filter at higher rpm. Think of it this way: The outlet (centre tube) is WAY oversized just to get a good workable sized pipe thread on the base plate.

 

[69GTX]

In looking at various M/C FL820S filters for sale, some have 4, 6, 8 holes. My Purolator version has 6 holes. My Fram XG2 has 8 holes. The Puro's 6 holes easily cover the area of the center hole. The Fram's do not. There's apparently more to filter design than size and # of holes.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: 69GTX
In looking at various M/C FL820S filters for sale, some have 4, 6, 8 holes. My Purolator version has 6 holes. My Fram XG2 has 8 holes. The Puro's 6 holes easily cover the area of the center hole. The Fram's do not. There's apparently more to filter design than size and # of holes.

You measured the overall surface area of the eight holes and it is less than the center one? Or are you relying on your ability to calculate the area of a circle by eye?

If you are going on looks alone I bet you're wrong (from a previous thread on the exact same subject as this one):

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: Dubai_guy
Hi all, my next oil change i am going to try MANN FILTER W920/45,

but that 4 inlets makes me hesitant as it may restrict flow of this big engine, what do you think?

Since that center hole is threaded onto the oil filter mount, look at the opening in the mount, not on the filter. I would bet that TWO of the smaller holes are the same area as the opening in the male threaded oil filter mount.

If two don't get it, the third will.

This will flow just fine.

Someone figured out that they don't need a half dozen or so holes to match up with what passes through the threaded mount.

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: 69GTX
In looking at various M/C FL820S filters for sale, some have 4, 6, 8 holes. My Purolator version has 6 holes. My Fram XG2 has 8 holes. The Puro's 6 holes easily cover the area of the center hole. The Fram's do not. There's apparently more to filter design than size and # of holes.

You measured the overall surface area of the eight holes and it is less than the center one? Or are you relying on your ability to calculate the area of a circle by eye?

If you are going on looks alone I bet you're wrong (from a previous thread on the exact same subject as this one):

Probably even better than you describe. Measuring the filter doesn't matter. You need to know the ID of the threaded mounting point to really make a good analysis.

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: Dubai_guy
Hi all, my next oil change i am going to try MANN FILTER W920/45,

but that 4 inlets makes me hesitant as it may restrict flow of this big engine, what do you think?

"I THINK" MANN might have done their homework and wouldn't recommend the filter if it were detrimental to your engine.

 

[69GTX]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
You measured the overall surface area of the eight holes and it is less than the center one? Or are you relying on your ability to calculate the area of a circle by eye?

If you are going on looks alone I bet you're wrong (from a previous thread on the exact same subject as this one):

1. Yes, I eye balled the Fram and its 8 holes were clearly LESS surface area than the center one. It's not even close. I figured I could stick at least 12 of those little holes in the center with room left over. Amazing what one can do with eye balls. Just for giggles I broke out a little ruler and did some rough measurements. Center hole is approx 20 mm diameter while the little (8) holes are 5 mm. I don't have to tell you that the 20/5 ratio squared gives you 16....so 8 holes easily fits (my math was 157 mm2 for 8 little holes vs. 314 mm2 on the center one...not even close). Enough room for 16 holes. So I'm not wrong.

It's also clear than my Puro L24651 has 6 fairly large oval/rectangular slots. Each of those slots can easily hold 2 of the smaller round slots from the Fram. That means a net 6X2 small slots on the Puro...or 50% min. more area than the Fram. Yes, I eye balled that too. Very easy. Measuring the Puro slots as an effective 5x10 mm rectangle gives 50 mm2....or a total of 300 mm2...essentially 2x the 157 mm2 of the Fram. Eye balling works.

Maybe those 30 years doing piping and boiler inspections along with general power plant engineering gave me ample opportunities to judge volumes, areas, lengths, etc. We eye balled and estimated things all the time. I even showed the 2 filter to my wife who has zero engineering skills. She picked the Puro as having much more "hole" surface" area than the Fram.

 

[ZeeOSix]

^^^ Gotta compare to the ID hole of the filter's mounting spud, not the threaded hole in the filter's base.

 

[69GTX]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
^^^ Gotta compare to the ID hole of the filter's mounting spud, not the threaded hole in the filter's base.


The fact of the exercise is that the Puro filter with the large 6 slots had FAR more surface area than the Fram. Makes you wonder. The centers on them are the same since they both fit my 4.6L. My estimate of the center hole being 20 mm wide is no doubt not the ID of the oil pipe it threads on to. Even at 14 mm ID, that would match the Fram's 8 hole surface area (approx 154-157 mm each). That means that pipe would have to have 3 mm wall thickness...which there's no way it is....maybe 1-2 mm. My eye balling stands. The real question is why do some filters have 50-100% more hole "flow surface" than other?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Remember that a positive displacement oil pump is doing the oil forcing through the system. Having slightly less hole area in the base plate only increases the delta-p across the filter by a very small amount. The media is the most restrictive part of an oil filter.

 

[dnewton3]

You must look at this in terms of volumetric flow and not just area; it's fluid velocity AND area that matters to understand total flow.
However, if we assume velocity is a constant for any given example, area is the deciding factor.

Further, you CANNOT accurately state that four holes that are 6mm in size = one hole 24mm in size; it does NOT work that way.
Anyone who's ever used a pipe-chart to select water/gas pipe for installation knows this.
Anyone who's ever worked with fluid flow for a living knows this.
Anyone who's ever passed a simple geometry class knows this.
Anyone but a BITOGer ....

(sigh ......)


where TT = pi (there's no "pi" symbol on my keyboard, so I'm using TT as a close look alike)
r = radius
squared = exponential factor 2 (there's no suspescript feature on my keyboard either)
Examples:
four holes, 6mm in diameter; Total Area = TT x (r)squared, multiply x four holes ........... 113 square mm
one hole, 24mm in diameter; Total area = TT x (r)squared .................. 452 square mm

presuming that velocity is held as a constant and therefore can be ignored, the one 24mm hole will flow about 4x more than the four 6mm holes ...
Just saying ...

I also agree that the actual inlet to the engine (vs. outlet of the filter) is governed by the ID of the pipe nipple thread mount, not the ID of the filter base threads, so there's that, too ...

Don't confuse the flow rate which is occurring, given the pump speed (based on engine speed) with flow capability of the filter. The MAX FLOW RATE of the filter would have to be derived by knowing the MAX intended designed velocity of the fluid, not just what the engine is going to potentially push. And it will also depend upon the media restriction; another variable.


You cannot know the fluid flow of the pump by only knowing the PSI; does not work that way. You must know the volumetric flow of the pump. A pump can push 90 psi at 10 gpm or 90 psi at 10 gph, depending upon restriction(s). NEVER confuse volumetric flow with pressure; both are dependent upon area, but they are two different topics (flow vs pressure).




Generally, trust the engineers and go worry about your favorite sport's team.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
If you are going on looks alone I bet you're wrong (from a previous thread on the exact same subject as this one):

I was going to repost that, but you beat me to it

 

[Sayjac]

I've seen the comparison figures posted here before. However 'if' those figures represent only the filter outlet hole area, not the complete picture. The engine block filter mounting stud/bolt reduces the area of outlet opening more than the outlet hole itself. So likely the inflow% outflow percentage even greater than represented.

As noted, doubtful any restriction issues with topic filter.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: Sayjac
I've seen the comparison figures posted here before. However 'if' those figures represent only the filter outlet hole area, not the complete picture. The engine block filter mounting stud/bolt reduces the area of outlet opening more than the outlet hole itself. So likely the inflow% outflow percentage even greater than represented.
Sayjac - I took that into account on the FL-820s/XG2 chart above. The output hole of the filter is more than 16MM. I measured the ID of the mounting stud on my 2010 FX4 to arrive at the 16MM number.

 

[Sayjac]

Ok, didn't see that noted in outlet area so wanted make sure that was understood in the discussion. Also that could/would be vehicle specific. Still ~120-200% significantly more inlet area to outlet area in the examples. Which would indicate to me filters are engineered to have plenty of leeway for inlet-outlet area consideration.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

The ID of the inlet nipple is likely oversized also - you are not pumping unimpeded into the engine mains drill - its not a open ended hose! And if the pump has a bypass then you ARE dealing with volume flow at pressure. If the pump is in bypass at a specific rpm and fluid viscosity it will present say 30psig at the filter inlet and the volume flow will be moderated by all the restrictions in the circuit.
I am convinced This is why we sometimes have filter related engine noise were we shouldn't if the pump didn't go into bypass. Inadequate pressure somewhere critical in the circuit.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: Sayjac
Ok, didn't see that noted in outlet area so wanted make sure that was understood in the discussion. Also that could/would be vehicle specific. Still ~120-200% significantly more inlet area to outlet area in the examples. Which would indicate to me filters are engineered to have plenty of leeway for inlet-outlet area consideration.
I agree with your thoughts and as Arco stated it is not a full "bore" throughout, it begins to taper at some point. I calculated these when I saw the smaller holes on the XG2 versus the FL-820s filters I used to use, but as you state, in the end, there is more than enough capacity.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
If the pump is in bypass at a specific rpm and fluid viscosity it will present say 30psig at the filter inlet and the volume flow will be moderated by all the restrictions in the circuit.
I am convinced This is why we sometimes have filter related engine noise were we shouldn't if the pump didn't go into bypass. Inadequate pressure somewhere critical in the circuit.

If the positive displacement pump was in pressure relief, the inlet pressure at the filter would be whatever the pump relief pressure is -
typically 80~100 psi.

It usually takes very cold thick oil along with pretty high engine RPM to get an oil pump to hit pressure relief. Still best practice to keep engine RPM down until the oil warms up some to keep pump out of relief and the filter's bypass valve closed.

As long as the pump is out of pressure relief all the oil comng out of the pump will go through the filter and engine. Even if the total hole area in the base plate was 75% of the mount spud hole, all it will do is cause a slight increase in delta-p across the filter, but the flow will be the same if the PD pump isn't in pressure relief, which it shouldn't be.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
If the pump is in bypass at a specific rpm and fluid viscosity it will present say 30psig at the filter inlet and the volume flow will be moderated by all the restrictions in the circuit.
I am convinced This is why we sometimes have filter related engine noise were we shouldn't if the pump didn't go into bypass. Inadequate pressure somewhere critical in the circuit.

If the positive displacement pump was in pressure relief, the inlet pressure at the filter would be whatever the pump relief pressure is -
typically 80~100 psi.

You are correct, of course, ZEE, I just re-read my post I meant 90psig and typed 30. Blind and old will do that.

Have you seen any good articles on the new variable displacement oil pumps used in many high efficiency ( Atkinson cycle) engine. I think I recall an article about a toyota hybrid combustion engine in a car mag a few years ago. Should be an interesting read.