Filter Warranty...

Filter guy · May 12, 2005

This has been bantered about in a few different threads.

At least one sceptic says filter companies don't pay warranties.

A couple others think that what they pay is for the filter itself.

It's to bad they don't do the research before they jump to conclusions.

One can go to the filter companies websites, look in their catalogs for their printed warranty, or call them to find out their warranty..

The basic language you will see is something to the effect of " will restore the engine or equipment to a condition equivalent of that existing just before the failure."

They pay for the engine should the filter be mismanufactured.

Should you ever send in a filter because your engine has had a problem, do not cut it open .

The lab will want the filter intact in order to test it.

Should you feel that there is some sort of filter company conspiracy, you can mark your filter before you send it back.

At Champ, and I suspect the other filter companies as well, you have 60 days to request your filter back after they have tested it. If you do, then you can send the filter out for additional independant lab testing at your own expense or your lawyers.

Filter companies will request the repair bills should the filter test or be found to be defective by the filter company that manufactured the filter. They or their insurance company will then reimburse you.

------------------------------------------

Now some of the things they will need to know are :
The nature of your complaint.
Make, model, and engine type of the vehicle.
Total mileage on the vehicle.
Mileage since last oil change.
Type of oil and oil grade used.
An oil sample would be of great benefit as well.

What will happen once the filter is logged in and received is a warranty report will be started and that the part number will be checked against the correct cataloged part number for the make, model, engine type.

A visual inspection for dents or holes in the can and a check for collapsed center tube will be done.

The threads and gasket will be checked to make sure they are correct for the catalog part number. Threads will also be checked for alignment within the backplate.

Then the lab equipment will be used to test the filter.

As an example: You claim the filter leaked and caused the oil to run out and then the engine failed.

The filter will be put on an impulse test machine which will pulse the filter a minimum 5,000 times ( simulating cold engine starts at a high pressure rate). If the filter doesn't leak, no warranty will be paid. If it does leak, they will pay the claim.

If you claim the engine failed and the filter never leaked advanced testing will be done. Which is why they need the filter to be intact.

When the testing is done you will receive a cover letter and an explaination of the tests done by engineering. ( This is Champs policy and I suspect the same with the other filter companies).

RZ28 · May 12, 2005

quote:

the part number will be checked against the correct cataloged part number for the make, model, engine type.

Looks like a lot of BITOGers won't be eligible.

y_p_w · May 12, 2005

I'm wondering what to do with my application. I use an OEM Subaru filter made in Japan by Tokyo Roki, Ltd. I'd suppose I'd want to contact Subaru first, as Tokyo Roki doesn't seem to have any US operations. Subaru has a warranty on replacment parts, but it's only one year after purchase, and I bought 10 from a dealer in Washington with online sales. Honestly though, I would expect Subaru would back up their product if it failed.

Other than that, I've been using primarily aftermarket Champ filters in the family cars. Just installed an SuperTech Ecore a week ago.

slalom44 · May 12, 2005

Good post, Filter guy. This is good stuff to hear. As I've posted before, I can confirm that filter companies do reimburse for damages.

I don't disagree with what you've posted, but I'm not sure that many people will be inclined to send a filter back unopened without knowing there is anything wrong with it. Champion Labs reimbursed me after I sent them the two filters that I cut open. They obviously had torn media, so testing the filter wouldn't tell them anything different. But I wouldn't have known that there was anything wrong with these filters if I hadn't cut them open.

Mr Nice · May 12, 2005

Filter Guy,

Lets say someone cuts open a filter and sees the torn paper media and sends it to Champ Labs, can't Champ Labs just 'repackage' the oil filter internals into a new canister and then put it through all the tests??

I ask this question, cause of all the people who say they had bad experiences with Champ Lab filters with the 'clicker' bypass valve.

I cut open 12 Champ Lab filters in the past 3 years with ZERO problems (Mobil 1, STP, SuperTech)

Filter guy · May 12, 2005

LT4 Vette:

I think slalom44 answered your question. He sent a cut open filter back and Champ warrantied his engine.

First, that should prove the Champ will warranty a mismanufactured filter.

Second, what happens if he cuts the filter open and finds nothing? Does he know for sure there wasn't a problem? Does the oem use this against him? Does he know what he's looking for?

And while it is possible to re-can a filter element and flow test it..does that mean the filter that was cut open was manufactured properly? Was the element held with the tension spring properly in the filter that was cut open? Was the element sealed properly against the backplate? Was the ADBP installed correctly? The lab may/will never know.

Suppose the anti-drain was installed upside down. You cut the filter open. You notice the problem. How will the filter company know you didn't tamper with the filter when you claim the anti drain wasn't installed properly?

So there are good reasons not to cut open a filter if you have an engine failure or suspect problems.

Which leads to what I am talking about and trying to convey, is when your engine has a problem and one of the suspected reasons for it "could" be a filter.

If your engine "dies", then save the filter and some oil. I'm just trying to give a heads up to those who read this forum.

If it hasn't died yet but you are noticing problems where a dealer or mechanics advice is your going to have repair bills of some consequence, again save the filter and some oil and let the filter company test the filter and oil. ( if you save two samples of oil, you can send one back with the filter and one to a lab of your choice to compare results). If it is found to be the filters fault by the filter manufacturer..then you needn't look further.

If it is not the filters fault and your automotive OEM wants to claim it is and they won't warranty the engine, then you now have the full technical testing of the filter company as "proof" that it was not the filters fault for the failure. And should you decide to get a lawyer to go after repair damages to your engine, you now have exhibit A and the filter companies help.

What most in here never see or get involved in ( and personally it's a laugh ) Is that the filter companies listed all offer heavy duty filtration products. Where the engines cost $10-25,000 to repair. Those customers when an engine fails or have problems are very interested in the filter they use. They routinely use oil analysis. Or if they don't they will generally have an oil sample with the filter when they need engine repairs. That is common place. It may be "new" and unusual to people who own cars and post in here but not those with diesel engines. So it is more common for them to use the evidence that the filter was NOT at fault when they need to claim warranty.

Pictures of filters in these forums and the discussion of how they look is a moot point to me. It is no different on the big engine filters. Pleats with spacing as pictured in here and claimed to be "defective" manufacturing is a laugh. Happens all the time.

What is critical is that the pleats remain intact and are sealed properly. If they do, the element is functioning properly no matter how bad they look. That should be a simple matter of fact for most to understand. Even for engines that cost 10 grand or more to repair.

So if the filter looks bad for whatever reason but is intact and you get a service report that says there was nothing wrong with the filter, along with information from oil analysis, the consumer has then has the leverage. Which is why you have the option of getting the filter back and if the oem wants to test it they can. Although the oem testing it has rarely happened in my experience after the filter company has reported.

It's funny how warranties are paid by automotive oem's after the filter lab report says there were no defects or problems found...

It's also funny how based on some picture evidence the cars/suv's in question left the lube shop still running. One would think they are just moments away from their engine falling apart based on the conclusions drawn by some...imho of course.

B00SS · May 12, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by Filter guy:
...the part number will be checked against the correct cataloged part number for the make, model, engine type.

I don't want to read to much into this, so help me. If I were to use an oversize filter, that did not interfere with other parts, would this void a claim?

Winston · May 12, 2005

Slalom,

Did they pay for a new engine or did they replace the filter? If they paid for the engine, how did you conclude that the torn media caused the engine to fail. Also, what failed on the engine?

Gary Allan · May 12, 2005

quote:

I don't want to read to much into this, so help me. If I were to use an oversize filter, that did not interfere with other parts, would this void a claim?

I don't know what the filter company would say to that. I think the main issue would be proper fittment (gasket, thread, etc.). In virtually 100% of the cases, the filters are identical except for the size of the can. They know this ..you know this. It may be a non-issue ..but it does give them an autostealership type out. The Baldwin site, when available, clearly states alternative sizes for their filters (ie short version, long version, etc.). This, at least, implies that the size of the filter isn't of paramount importance in filter selction. Donaldson also, in many listings, offers alternative part # for one filter or another. That is, they don't necessarily differentiate suitablity based on manufacturer spec'd #.

What I can see happening, with someone like lubeowner using a lowball filter, with an abreviated application chart (to reduce inventory) and using a standard 8-12 psi bypass valve ..and someone using it for the 10k-15k OCI that typically uses (and OEM spec's) a 30 lb bypass ..and having that kicked back to the consumer who then has to seek damages from the vendor. Sure the vendor can claim ignorance ..but it adds another obstacle to the mix.

[ May 13, 2005, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]

lubeowner · May 12, 2005

Yeah the filter books were all Warner. What I guess I am trying to say is that for a given car the actual filter that Warner calls for has different specs. than the Wix filter book calls for. Like I posted in another thread Warner blankets VW with one filter. Wix has 4 different ones depending on year, make, model. How can Warner spec. out 1 to cover all, something is fishy here. I have run into this a couple times in the last few days. One was on a Range Rover that called for a completely different filter than Warner specs. It seems that the low line filters try to blanket cover a lot of vehicles and or engines with one part number. If this was acceptable why does Wix and other higher quality filters use several more part numbers?

labman · May 13, 2005

I really question if we need 100 different filters. How many of the filters are that different inside? How much does it hurt to have a bypass in the filter for a GM product? How much does the bypass setting depend on the engineer's personal preference for flow vs. clean oil? Does it hurt if the gasket is wide enough to cover more than one diameter? Buy just the right Fram out of their wall of Orange and end up with a filter with less media than a Champ that covers several applications? Champ is very upfront about covering applications with fewer numbers. They say so on their Ecore web page. Even if I pay twice as much for a Purolator as for an ST for my truck, I am still getting an unneeded bypass in the filter. I should pay 3 times as much for a WIX? For something that really doesn't do that much? I don't smoke that kind of stuff.

slalom44 · May 13, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by Winston:
Slalom,

Did they pay for a new engine or did they replace the filter? If they paid for the engine, how did you conclude that the torn media caused the engine to fail. Also, what failed on the engine?

Their claim form ask me "If warranty claim, please provide an estimate of the amount and nature of related expenses". I responded, "Significant increase in wear & oil consumption. Estimated depreciated value: $500.00". Later in the form I gave more detail on the increased oil consumption.

This was a car with 203,000 miles on it when I submitted the claim. I think $500.00 is a realistic loss in value of the car. I wasn't trying to be unreasonable. This car used less than 1 quart in 3000 miles prior to these filters, and has used a little more than 1 quart every 1000 miles since then. I can't prove (and I don't know) whether the filters were the only contributor, but two failed filters with detailed information on the circumstances makes a compelling argument.

BTW: The two filters that failed were ST-3614, which are oversized filters for the Corolla, and not specified for this engine, They knew that I was using an oversized filter for this car, but I also know that the bypass setting for competitive filters is not different.

lubeowner · May 13, 2005

Labman,

If you are referring to my post I don't think I have done a good job explaining. The bypass settings are different. I would think this is important. There are some NAPA (Wix) numbers that do not cross to their second line. They only make certain apps. in Gold line with heavier media and silicone ADBV. These are usually applications that the manufacturer allows extended drain intervals. OK, so how do the other filters meet the spec. if the nitrile ADBV hardens up or the media fatigues and fails. I would say Champs are marginal past 4K.

Gary Allan · May 13, 2005

quote:

I really question if we need 100 different filters.

That might be one of those questions like why does Bill Gates sell operating systems that makes any current state of the art hardware quickly obsolete ..without necessarily advancing themselves. It's good for business.

. I mean it would make sense if all automotive filters came in one thread with one or two gasket sizes ..and maybe three can lengths and diameters. I imagine that this could easily be done. Sorta like an OBDII or IEEE standard type thing for interfacing.

Winston · May 13, 2005

Slolam, thank you very much for the details. Interesting....

Bypass valves. It would seem that if you put a filter on a car that had a higher bypass pressure than what the mfg speced you would have insufficient oil flow under cold start conditions. Right? This may also contribute to more valve/lifter noise during startup.

ZR2RANDO · May 13, 2005

“Should you ever send in a filter because your engine has had a problem, do not cut it open .”

Right, That’s the best way NOT to find a problem,,,, don’t look for it.

Guys,
Filters (whether defective from the factory, or just plain cheap and not up to the job) can have failures that are not always immediately catastrophic, or even noticeable during use.
(Of course, if the filter leaked externally that would be obvious without dissection..)
At least as far as I’m concerned, I’m not going to just blindly use obviously cheaply made products and hope that I never have a problem, and then if I do have a problem, hope the product (filter in this case) that is in use at the moment happens to be the one that caused my problem. The odds are so heavy against me in that situation that I am guaranteed to lose.
I cut open every filter that comes off my trucks. If I find a company has changed designs I will see it that first time, and if I don’t like it, switch brands. If I find a defective filter, I will find it right then and there. If I believe it to be an anomaly, I will give it (that brand) a second chance, if it looks like a failure due to bad design, I will just switch brands. But I will not put much if any faith in a warranty on a filter!

Given, SLALOM44 was reimbursed (I just read his post above..good for him)Normally the consequence of using poorly designed/built oil filters is as he stated, just a more accelerated wearing of lubricated surfaces in the motor, burning oil type of thing. That type of damage may not be noticed for a while. Not everybody changes his (or her) own oil What if his car had only 50k miles on it? I would rather just insure myself by checking routinely the products I use, than knowingly using cheap products that I hope don’t fail on me. If I ever do have a major problem that seems oil filter related I’ll call the mfgr and tell them about it, and they can retrieve the filter if they want to, but it will be cut open already (and fully documented) when they get it (with the obvious exception of a major external leak..). My point is that I don’t want to get myself in that situation in the first place, because I know the odds are against me at that point. If I never cut open the filters I would never see the root cause of the problem.

And Gary, I agree, would be nice if there was just big, medium and small huh, and would you like that with, or without a bypass….

loudist · May 13, 2005

lubeowner,
What is your opinion on using oversized filters for an application?
Are there advantages/disadvantages?
If there are indeed advantages, what would the Napa oversized filter cross be for a Motorcraft 820S (bypass pressure etc.)?

lubeowner · May 13, 2005

loudist,

I think that oversize is a good idea for the smaller import cars, and some domestics that use tiny filters. There are a few of our customers in the know that have us use oversize filters on their cars. Of course because of liability reasons I cannot provide warranty on our work if anything other than the exact filter the book calls for is used. (Everyone is lawsuit happy these days.) On the 820s I don't know of an oversize filter that would fit. The Wix 1515 does not have the right threads. I would not worry about oversizing if you are using the 820s. It is a good filter with lots of media. I have seen them abused (extremely long OCI, and they live through it every time).

Gary Allan · May 13, 2005

quote:

Bypass valves. It would seem that if you put a filter on a car that had a higher bypass pressure than what the mfg speced you would have insufficient oil flow under cold start conditions. Right? This may also contribute to more valve/lifter noise during startup.

Well, I wouldn't necessarily assume that under that limited context. I would say that with a radically higher bypass setting you could create a situation that could lower your cold start oil flow. Those higher bypass settings are used to assure total filtration over extended accumulation. We can assume that in these cases (OEM spec'd for these type of filters) that this is factored into the oil pump/pressure/relief design. The bypass doesn't commonly see much use for at least half of its typical life. It's a safety mechanism for the sake of the media ..not the engine. If you had a pressure relief of ..let's take my jeep OEM pump ..of 75psi ..and your pump volume only generates a max of 40 psi ..you could use a 30 PSID bypass filter and not have a worry in the world even if it was heavily saturated (totally plugged even). The pump would never go into relief.

I will add one of these 30 psid filters to my "list of filters" to ulimately test ..but I suspect that they have no more PSID than a standard filter when used over the same (lower) duration. That is, they probably have a nominal 4 PSID for 5-8k or more.

Hmm..let me throw this out for you to ponder, Winston. I have a filter that fits my 3/4-16 thread that has no bypass valve. What your perceptions be at any point in the use of it as long as two conditions were met? One ..that the relief limit of the pump was never reached... and two ..the PSID progressed without recession during the entire OCI. Would it matter if a bypass valve was there or not??

slalom44 · May 13, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by Winston:
Bypass valves. It would seem that if you put a filter on a car that had a higher bypass pressure than what the mfg speced you would have insufficient oil flow under cold start conditions. Right? This may also contribute to more valve/lifter noise during startup.

Some cars (I know Volkswagen for sure) require a 30 PSI bypass setting on their filters. Many other cars with the same threads have around 8-11 psi bypass. Pressure is cumulative through the engine, so if your engine's pressure relief valve is set at 75 PSI, oil pressure to your engine will only get up to 45 psi if you use a VW filter on some other car. If that car usually takes a filter with an 8-11 psi bypass, it would otherwise see 64-67 psi.

I know from looking at oil pressure gauges over the years that cold engines on cold days definitely open up their pressure relief valve. If it starts opening up when the engine only sees 45 psi, you're not getting adequate flow to your engine.

Filter Warranty...

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