Even the mighty Porsche DI succumbs to deposits

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
Sorry but I have not been following this Thread

RI_RS4 - You ask for my comments.......

1 - Lack of Data
a) What engine family is this? For instance if it is a V6 then it is a VW engine
b) As others have said;
more meaningful details are needed before any constructive comments can be made
The details required are widespread and similar to those required for making a Warranty claim
c) Was the vehicle under Warranty?
d) What Country did this event allegedly occur in?

2 - TISB (Australia)
No TISBs are in effect for this matter for any DI engine (current info 11/06/09)

3 - Porsche (in Germany) mandate two years or 30kkms OCIs on all Porsche DI engines
(The largest Dealership (Porsche Zentrum - Stuttgart) reported to me recently that they have no DI engine issues - they use M1 0W-40 but use Owner supplied Approved & Listed lubricants)

4 - Speaking with many Porsche racers and Porsche Club Nurburgring members recently at the Nurburgring did not disclose any DI engine issues

5 - Speaking with a number of DI Porsche Owners (many multi car owners) did not disclose any engine issues. One Owner had just taken delivery of his third DI Carrera

6 - A number of Audi and Porsche Private Team Engineers made comments similar to this"...all engine lubricants today are of such good quality the Brand doesn't matter. Viscosity and factory recommendations and experience does..."

7 - Castrol's Formula RS 10W-60 (A3/B3/B4 - SL/CF) was used by a number of Audi Teams in order to maintain oil pressure

Back to the Thread - more information is needed please!

You also state that Audi are asking for deposit samples "from a few" locations - this seems a very belated reaction to what some see as a "widespread" problem. This was not the case with the FSI engines I drove in Europe nor the experience of a major user of these engines - but - we are always learning!

 

[ZZman]

Maybe picking a low Noack oil would help then. Redline is very low.

 

[crew219]

Originally Posted By: saaber1

Also it should be noted that when VW redesigned the DI 2.0 FSI to the DI 2.0 TSI (avail. in the U.S. roughly mid 2008) they re-angled the fuel injectors so that some/more fuel is hitting the valves. That should help some I would think.

For more info., see self study guide for the TSI here, about 1/3 of the way down the page:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3749316&page=5


Actually the self-study guide states the contrary . . . .

"Each injector has six individual fuel openings, providing better mixture preparation.

This also helps prevent "wetting" the intake valves and the combustion chamber surfaces during injection cycles."

IIRC a signifcant portion of the deposits on the valves are from weep holes in the valve stem seals designed to keep a layer of oil on the valves to help prevent depositing. This was covered in the patent information posted earlier . . .

Dave

 

[Boomer]

Pitzel, using a gc/mass spec is a great idea. I often wonder how much of this stuff is actually analyzed. Where I worked, engineers would handle a problem like this and go at it by playing with air flow, temperasture control, etc. I was always amazed at how long it took them to come up to our chemistry group and ask for help. Many times, a good chemical analysis would give the answer right away.

We did a test on plastics called the "burnt gas test" where natural gas was burned in a very hot flame to produce all manner of stuff like NOx, CO2, etc that is typical of combustion. A small ferris wheel of plastic strips was then allowed to revolve over the effluent. It was amazing how many items would discolor, harden, crack,and so forth in just a few days. Plastics containing liquid components like softeners, plasticizers, lubricants were usually the worst performers. In floor tile, it is actually the phthalate plasticizers that react with the NOx to form the bright orange color.

Evedn an elemental analysis of the crud would be informative. Is nitrogen present? Sulfur? What about metals? Don't forget that some organomettalics can have quite a high vapor pressure, particularly at higher temperatures.

 

[pitzel]

Doug (or anyone else), is there a culture outside of North America of fairly strict adherance to manufacturer's recommendations, rather than anecdotal recommendations?

Do non-North American car maintenance providers use oil changes as a sort of 'loss' item (like they do here), with economic incentives a'plenty to use cheap 5w30 dino for cheap OC's? Is there a culture of misinformation when it comes to auto maintenance like we seem to have in North America?

Of course, can't let anecdotal stuff, psychology, and marketing get in the way of science, but if European vehicles aren't experiencing this, and American ones are, then [censored] is different other than the big elephant in the room, being the OCI interval??

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
Pitzel - I can only go by my own experience

Cars
In Australia I would believe that most new car buyers will use the liquids specified for use under Warranty. My expoerience with Dealerships is that this is the case too. Service fills are usually a compliant product and the Brand a Dealer's choice

This is certainly the case with MB and Porsche and Audi/VW. Where I have purchased used vehicle of these Brands the engine lubricant have been as specified especially where they have been Dealer serviced - and even over many years

Once out of Warranty I would expect many would stay with what the Service fill has been, Some would then buy from parts shops/supermarkets etc where price and not specification has been the case

On a recent visit to Northern Europe and after speaking to many vehicle owners, private racers and Fleet engineers it would appear that they use Approved lubricants as a first choice (Some use Castrol's Formula RS 10W-60 in highly modified engine - this lubricanst is Approved in many of these applications

Trucks (all engine Brands)
This is an area that I have been widely invovled in for many decades. Over the last two decades and primarily due to many self induced disasters* most Fleet trucks now use specified lubricants. Engine and lubricant suppliers police this very well IMO.
Most ODs use the specified lubricants and have their engines serviced by the "supplier"

*Disasters = Excessive engine deposits, excessive engine and component wear, excessive oil consumption and etc

 

[Art_Vandelay]

Originally Posted By: pitzel


Of course, can't let anecdotal stuff, psychology, and marketing get in the way of science, but if European vehicles aren't experiencing this, and American ones are, then [censored] is different other than the big elephant in the room, being the OCI interval??


Doesn't the oil capacity of many European vehicles factor somewhat into the extended drain interval? If BMW's were running 4.5 quarts wouldn't you say the interval would have to be shortened?

 

[Steve S]

Originally Posted By: wannafbody
Seems as if DI engines aren't all they are hyped up to be. I wonder if regular top end cleaning with Seafoam through the PCV system would work?
My favorite comment which most people don't get is I would rather let the other consumers pay to test a new design or model. Seems like a pcv problem

 

[ericthepig]

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Porsche (in Germany) mandate two years or 30kkms OCIs on all Porsche DI engines
(The largest Dealership (Porsche Zentrum - Stuttgart) reported to me recently that they have no DI engine issues - they use M1 0W-40 but use Owner supplied Approved & Listed lubricants)


Question for Hillary - what does a two year/30kkm mandate mean? Does that mean - do OC at or under this interval? Or does it mean, do them at this interval ... period.

And is this interval in any way related to what Pitzel is claiming - that is, over maint. leading to increased deposits?

Thanks!

 

[buster]

I guess this is where the saying "you have to pay to play" comes in. I would not count on ANY engine oil to solve a severe, problematic engine design flaw. Peace out.

 

[tom slick]

It looks like only folks poking their noses down the intake and speculating consider this an issue. Porsche doesn't seem concerned according to Doug's post.

Do we have proof this is more than a cosmetic issue?

 

[moribundman]

I know the cure for all deposit related issues that may plague every motor. Need I say it out loud, or can you all read my mind?

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: moribundman
I know the cure for all deposit related issues that may plague every motor. Need I say it out loud, or can you all read my mind?

C-4? Properly applied, it solves almost any problem.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: moribundman
I know the cure for all deposit related issues that may plague every motor. Need I say it out loud, or can you all read my mind?

Auto RX of course!

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: moribundman
I know the cure for all deposit related issues that may plague every motor. Need I say it out loud, or can you all read my mind?

Auto RX of course!


Not as much fun though....

 

[tom slick]

not long ago that would have been the first response to the OP!

 

[sprintman]

RX doesn't go in the fuel system. FAIL, and a big fail at that.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: sprintman
RX doesn't go in the fuel system. FAIL, and a big fail at that.


These deposits don't come from the fuel system, they come from the OIL!

ULTRA FAIL!

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
tom slick - They aren't! I just had a long discussion on this issue and no TISBs exist here for DI engines and this issue

The last serious valve deposit issue was with poor quality fuel and in the 928 (V8) of many years ago - of course were injected engines but not DI

It is always "sensational" to start some Threads off - however why do so when insufficient meaningful data is available to support the Topic?

It also appears that Audi-VW are unaware of the "issue" going by the previous comments about data collection

Even in the 1960s (before Computerisation) data collection was extremely important in analysing the magnitude of any problem - and to enable short lead times for correction "on-line". Been there - done that, many many times!!!
The Japanese (and DB) have always been "masters" at such practices and we have all benefitted from it

 

[buster]

An all to common problem with the internet is we are only seeing a small sample size.