EV Range Correlation to Longevity

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There are two camps in the EV world from what I can tell... the ones that thing range matters most and the ones that think range doesn't really matter as long as charging is fast, reliable, and available.

I think both have their pros and cons and the ideal balance is likely somewhere in the middle BUT I do think that EVs with longer range will last longer overall, and people should try to buy the longest-range EVs they can if longevity is important, even if it might cost more up front.

The reasons are simple... first off, the larger the pack the less any given driven cycles the battery. If you have to drive 100 miles in a Nissan Leaf, let's say that's approximately 1 cycle. If you have to drive 100 miles in a Chevy Bolt, let's say that's approximately half a cycle, so that's 0.5x the wear on the battery. Obviously chemistry, thermal management, etc. Make these two vehicles difficult to compare but I'm trying to keep it simple.

Plus, the sweet spot of battery longevity for NMC EV batteries seems to be 20-80%, so you should treat 20% battery as empty and not charge to more than 80%. On an EV with longer range, this is more feasible and you'll exceed that sweet spot less. For LFP, it's a bit different, but most EVs are still NMC and it seems it'll stay that way for the forseeable future.

The other reason I think longer range EVs will last longer is they tend to have larger batteries and so any given charge or discharge rate ends up is less stressful for the battery. I think the term used here is "C rate".

All that aside, over time, an EV that started with more range will remain useful longer after degradation. For example, an EV that came with 100 mile range with 70% degradation only has a 30 mile range which is basically useless, while a 300-mile EV with 70% degradation would still have a 90 mile range, which is far more useful.

On the flip side, however, the more cells you have the battery the more likely you are to have a cell failure, which will effectively brick the car. Degradation is the loss of range but the car still works, while an individual cell going bad means the car doesn't work anymore. In this regard, an EV with a smaller battery with less cells might end up being more reliable?

Thoughts? Opinions?
 
This may be an apples to oranges comparison but it could have some relevance. Two flashlights; one rechargable and one with quickly replaceable batteries. Over time and many recharges the first flashlight becomes increasingly slower to accept a charge until it becomes sub-optimal and useless. The other flashlight is instantly recharged and one hundred percent useful as new.

The conundrum is really not a problem difficult to understand.
 
Tesla considers a battery to have failed if the total range falls below (I think it's) 80% of the original range. So a larger or smaller battery fails at the same point, according to that definition.

There is some logic to what you say however. Warranty considerations aside, a 250 mile remaining range would be better than a 200 mile remaining range. Practically speaking, my Tesla Model 3 SR+ would have to lose a very high percentage of its range before it became a brick.

Weight is an important consideration. One reviewer considered the Tesla Model 3 SR+ (the base model) the best choice because it had all the core Tesla features (including access to the Supercharging network), and it was lighter and therefore handled better.

But Tesla recommends buying a vehicle with the long range battery if you live in cold climate to retain maximum usefulness in very cold weather.
 
It's not that tricky, they should meet or exceed an ICE car. My wife's X3 in Wisconsin winter can get 500 miles to a tank of gas easily, fills up in 4 minutes. My Wrangler, being a wrangler, can get 400 miles to a tank of gas, refills in 4 minutes, has solid axles etc, I would expect the same from an electric one. Otherwise it's less practical and a huge step back. We like to take long road trips and don't stop now for 40 minutes every 2 hours or more, just pull off, gas up for 5 mins and back on the road another 5 hours.
 
Tesla considers a battery to have failed if the total range falls below (I think it's) 80% of the original range. So a larger or smaller battery fails at the same point, according to that definition.

It's 70%. Mileage (in the US) varies by model. The long range version doesn't have the longest mileage warranty, but it's all 8 years. And it's kind of odd since the Model 3 RWD has the LiFePO4 battery that's supposed to have better longevity.

8 years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.​
 
It's 70%. Mileage (in the US) varies by model. The long range version doesn't have the longest mileage warranty, but it's all 8 years. And it's kind of odd since the Model 3 RWD has the LiFePO4 battery that's supposed to have better longevity.

8 years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.​

That battery warranty federally mandated. Some are going out further than the minimum.
 
There are two camps in the EV world from what I can tell... the ones that thing range matters most and the ones that think range doesn't really matter as long as charging is fast, reliable, and available.

I think both have their pros and cons and the ideal balance is likely somewhere in the middle BUT I do think that EVs with longer range will last longer overall, and people should try to buy the longest-range EVs they can if longevity is important, even if it might cost more up front.

The reasons are simple... first off, the larger the pack the less any given driven cycles the battery. If you have to drive 100 miles in a Nissan Leaf, let's say that's approximately 1 cycle. If you have to drive 100 miles in a Chevy Bolt, let's say that's approximately half a cycle, so that's 0.5x the wear on the battery. Obviously chemistry, thermal management, etc. Make these two vehicles difficult to compare but I'm trying to keep it simple.

Plus, the sweet spot of battery longevity for NMC EV batteries seems to be 20-80%, so you should treat 20% battery as empty and not charge to more than 80%. On an EV with longer range, this is more feasible and you'll exceed that sweet spot less. For LFP, it's a bit different, but most EVs are still NMC and it seems it'll stay that way for the forseeable future.

The other reason I think longer range EVs will last longer is they tend to have larger batteries and so any given charge or discharge rate ends up is less stressful for the battery. I think the term used here is "C rate".

All that aside, over time, an EV that started with more range will remain useful longer after degradation. For example, an EV that came with 100 mile range with 70% degradation only has a 30 mile range which is basically useless, while a 300-mile EV with 70% degradation would still have a 90 mile range, which is far more useful.

On the flip side, however, the more cells you have the battery the more likely you are to have a cell failure, which will effectively brick the car. Degradation is the loss of range but the car still works, while an individual cell going bad means the car doesn't work anymore. In this regard, an EV with a smaller battery with less cells might end up being more reliable?

Thoughts? Opinions?
EV batteries are expected to last for 250k miles or more so I think your question is rather moot.
 
EV batteries are expected to last for 250k miles or more so I think your question is rather moot.
250,000 miles seems to be about the typical life for a Tesla Battery. And that's been true for batteries subject to what would be considered abuse - regular supercharging to 100% and then run down to nothing much.

I've seen a plot in which 1 or 2 examples (out of 60 or 80) fell below the typical degradation line and clearly failed early. That's what a warranty is for.

I've never kept a vehicle for 250,000 miles so the original battery should serve out the "required life" of my Tesla.
 
This may be an apples to oranges comparison but it could have some relevance. Two flashlights; one rechargable and one with quickly replaceable batteries. Over time and many recharges the first flashlight becomes increasingly slower to accept a charge until it becomes sub-optimal and useless. The other flashlight is instantly recharged and one hundred percent useful as new.

The conundrum is really not a problem difficult to understand.
If you mean gas powered vehicles...they slowly lose performance over time instead of range. Ill take a 5% range hit over a 5% power loss.
 
It's not that tricky, they should meet or exceed an ICE car. My wife's X3 in Wisconsin winter can get 500 miles to a tank of gas easily, fills up in 4 minutes. My Wrangler, being a wrangler, can get 400 miles to a tank of gas, refills in 4 minutes, has solid axles etc, I would expect the same from an electric one. Otherwise it's less practical and a huge step back. We like to take long road trips and don't stop now for 40 minutes every 2 hours or more, just pull off, gas up for 5 mins and back on the road another 5 hours.
But there is more to it. Unless her x3 is an x3m comp, then its not performing very comparatively. Its just a slow suv with comfort features. It costs $500/mo just in fuel alone vs $75-85. The tradeoff is easier road trips. User will determine what matters most case by case.
 
It's not that tricky, they should meet or exceed an ICE car. My wife's X3 in Wisconsin winter can get 500 miles to a tank of gas easily, fills up in 4 minutes. My Wrangler, being a wrangler, can get 400 miles to a tank of gas, refills in 4 minutes, has solid axles etc, I would expect the same from an electric one. Otherwise it's less practical and a huge step back. We like to take long road trips and don't stop now for 40 minutes every 2 hours or more, just pull off, gas up for 5 mins and back on the road another 5 hours.
You are right; it's not that tricky. These cars are different and are not for everyone. If it doesn't fit your use case, you probably shouldn't buy one. By the way, your ICE cars spend far more time fueling than my Model 3; I just plug it in when I get home. You have to go somewhere, sometimes wait in line and pay big bucks.

It's similar to a family of 5 buying a Mazda Miata or a Porsche 911. Both great cars but perhaps a minivan might make more sense.
What's practical for one may not be for another.
 
It's truly inspiring that my thread in the EV section about EVs is turning into EV vs ICE yet again... not.
 
It's not that tricky, they should meet or exceed an ICE car. My wife's X3 in Wisconsin winter can get 500 miles to a tank of gas easily, fills up in 4 minutes. My Wrangler, being a wrangler, can get 400 miles to a tank of gas, refills in 4 minutes, has solid axles etc, I would expect the same from an electric one. Otherwise it's less practical and a huge step back. We like to take long road trips and don't stop now for 40 minutes every 2 hours or more, just pull off, gas up for 5 mins and back on the road another 5 hours.
That’s far from possible for an EV at the current time and we all know it. Those charge numbers aren’t exactly accurate either. If you’re stopping for 40 minutes you’re looking at closer to 3-4 hours assuming it’s a car with good range driving conditions pending, but of course that’s not exactly convenient. I like EVs but I’m not a long trip EV fan. It’s the first car I’ll jump into if I have to go across town or the next town over. I’ll do the EV long trip with my family because they all want to stop that much. I usually avoid stopping until I hit a quarter tank if I’m by myself.
 
EV batteries are expected to last for 250k miles or more so I think your question is rather moot.
No, the OP has a very valid question. Lithium ion batteries wear not only with cycles, but with age as well. Keeping them within their ideal range minimizes the natural degradation. Even if you seldom drive it, I doubt any EV would maintain more than 50% of their range after 15-20 years.

I wish more consumer electronics in general would limit the battery charge % as that would greatly increase lifespan. Keeping batteries below 3.92V/cell or 60% is the most optimal point in which the natural internal stresses are minimized.
 
It's truly inspiring that my thread in the EV section about EVs is turning into EV vs ICE yet again... not.
It happens literally every time. Been my number one gripe lately. After that it’s EVs as trucks and then trucks in general after that. 😂

I’m starting to want a Rivian though. Maybe I should just throw all of that out.
 
No, the OP has a very valid question. Lithium ion batteries wear not only with cycles, but with age as well. Keeping them within their ideal range minimizes the natural degradation. Even if you seldom drive it, I doubt any EV would maintain more than 50% of their range after 15-20 years.

I wish more consumer electronics in general would limit the battery charge % as that would greatly increase lifespan. Keeping batteries below 3.92V/cell or 60% is the most optimal point in which the natural internal stresses are minimized.
EVs already limit the battery though. There’s the whole battery capacity and then the useable battery capacity set by the manufacturer. When we talk of intentionally limiting battery use to 20% to 80%, that’s of the displayed battery capacity which is based on the useable battery capacity. If we could use the whole battery I’m sure life overall would drop considerably.
 
It happens literally every time. Been my number one gripe lately. After that it’s EVs as trucks and then trucks in general after that. 😂

I’m starting to want a Rivian though. Maybe I should just throw all of that out.

I'm super excited to see that the Rivian R2 is like when it comes out! I think it's going to sell really well!
 
EVs already limit the battery though. There’s the whole battery capacity and then the useable battery capacity set by the manufacturer. When we talk of intentionally limiting battery use to 20% to 80%, that’s of the displayed battery capacity which is based on the useable battery capacity. If we could use the whole battery I’m sure life overall would drop considerably.

It should be possible to double the usable capacity of most lithium ion batteries with a BMS that just goes deeper into the voltage range. But that’s liKelly to cut into the overall longevity.

I bring up iPhones vs Macs and iPads. The former is smaller so getting more out of that small battery is desirable. The bigger devices can deal with oversizing the battery. iPhones are rated for 500 complete charge-discharge cycles while iPads and Macs are rated for 1000.
 
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