Ester/PAO mix cleans engines!

[Bill]

Posted by bruce:

quote:

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Hello any good PAO oil will have 10-15% ester for at least 2 resons 1 to solublize the whole formula to stay soluble and to offer some seal swell PAO alone will shrink seals even mobil 1 has esters.

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bruce,

Did you read my second post above?
I mentioned the PAO and Ester mix ...

Posted by SSDude:

quote:

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This was a few years ago. The chemistry for both oils have changed.

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Amsoil and Mobil 1 are PAO based lubricants, and they were a few years ago.


Here is a link where Terry says Mobil 1 and Redline are not good mixes:
Mobil 1 and Redline

 

[Gilitar]

Isn't GC a mix of PAO and Ester?

 

[SSDude]

Amsoil and Mobil 1 are PAO based lubricants, and they were a few years ago.


Here is a link where Terry says Mobil 1 and Redline are not good mixes:
Mobil 1 and Redline


I did not state that Mobil 1 and Amsoils were not PAO. THEY ARE PAO. I stated that they may no longer contain esters.

 

[TallPaul]

Sounds to me like Terry does not have a problem with Redline/M1 mix. In the linked thread he says (in his second post):

quote:

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While I don't PREFER the M1/ RL mix, neither one of the oils in the mix nor the LC chemistry caused the bearing wear.

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[thunderchild]

What about SuperTech Synthetic at our favorite WalMart? How does this oil stack up to the other synthetics? Does this oil have any PAO/Esthers in it?

 

[Bill]

Posted by TallPaul:

quote:

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Sounds to me like Terry does not have a problem with Redline/M1 mix. In the linked thread he says (in his second post):
quote:
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While I don't PREFER the M1/ RL mix, neither one of the oils in the mix nor the LC chemistry caused the bearing wear.
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TallPaul,

Terry was referring to this UOA only, when he stated that the M1/RL mix was not the caused for the bearing wear.

Read Terry’s third post in the thread -

‘M1 and Redline are not good chemistry mixes.’


Posted by SSDude:

quote:

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I did not state that Mobil 1 and Amsoils were not PAO. THEY ARE PAO. I stated that they may no longer contain esters.

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I never wrote that you stated that Amsoil and Mobil 1 were not PAO,
My point is I think the PAO make-up (blend) in these oils currently is the same as a couple of years ago.


As for Mobil 1 and Amsoil not containing Esters to balance out the mixture so that the seals do not shrink,
do these two oils use another additive to counter the seal shrinking cause by the PAO?

 

[crew219]

quote:

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What about SuperTech Synthetic at our favorite WalMart? How does this oil stack up to the other synthetics? Does this oil have any PAO/Esthers in it?

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IIRC, ST is straight Grp3

 

[TallPaul]

Right Bill. I don't know how I missed that. But what does he mean by

quote:

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M1 and Redline are not good chemistry mixes.

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[Bill]

TallPaul,

The link I posted earlier with Terry's statement was not the one I was looking for, I searched and could not find it but I thought I read a UOA thread of a mixture of Mobil 1 and Redline and the UOA was bad because of Ester/PAO mixture and Terry stated that in a post, I could be wrong,
I will keep searching...

 

[JAG]

Redline itself isn't a good chemisty mix! In some engines, it leaks past valve seals at an excessive rate and is burned. It happened over many oil change intervals to a new 02' Subaru Impreza 2.5 liter engine I had. Experiencing this consumption (0.9 qt/1000 miles), I then switched to other oils of same viscosity and comsumption was cut in half. Switched back to Redline, consumption doubled again. Switched back to other oils, consumtion was cut in half again. How's that for repeatability? **** Redline gear oil leaked right out of that car's transaxles and onto the headers. Put Valvoline gear oil in then, all leaking stopped immmediately and completely. Redline Water Wetter gels up VW G12 coolant. Using Redline products is like taking experimental medicine imported from Uganda.

 

[Bill]

Let's keep this thread on topic...

 

[thunderchild]

Well crew219: It is a good thing I add in a little M1T&S. 5quart jug of ST Syn and 1quart M1 T&S.

 

[SSDude]

I never wrote that you stated that Amsoil and Mobil 1 were not PAO,
My point is I think the PAO make-up (blend) in these oils currently is the same as a couple of years ago.


As for Mobil 1 and Amsoil not containing Esters to balance out the mixture so that the seals do not shrink,
do these two oils use another additive to counter the seal shrinking cause by the PAO?
__________________________________________________

Mobil 1 contains ANs instead of esters to prevent the seals from shrinking.

 

[bruce381]

Bill I do not understand

"Terry has mentioned that mixing a Ester based oil with PAO based is not good, the balance is not good, etc."


"M1 and Redline are not good chemistry mixes"


All I said was ANY good PAO oil will have esters.
regardless of what Terry said he, which I take as a additive clash not base stock or maybe I do not know what question is any more.

bruce

 

[Bill]

SSDude,

Thanks for the information about Mobil 1,
I get the impression from your posts earlier in this thread that it is only a guess that the Mobil 1 formulation has changed,
is there a link about Mobil 1 using ANs in place of Esters?

As for Amsoil, I have not seen any information from them that they have changed the formulation,
some of the Amsoil engines oils have changed in respect to viscosity, the 5w30 (ASL) and 10w30 (ATM) oils start with a lower viscosity but as for a formulation change, I have not read about it,
past articles from Amsoil disclosed that their oil are a PAO and Ester formulation,


bruce,

Terry did not explain what the problems was with mixing Redline & Mobil 1,
I get the impression the Esters and PAO conflict with each other,
like you said, a good PAO oil will have Esters to balance out the mixture to prevent seal shrinkage, I agree with you on that.
I can guess the balance of PAO and Esters made by the blender will work well but combining two oils,
an Ester based oil and a PAO oil can cause problems because of the balance of Ester and PAO?
or do the additives used in a Ester based lubricant and the additives used in a PAO based lubricant conflict with each other?

Bill

 

[reyjay1]

OTher than additive clash between RL and M1, couldn't it be which PAO and which Esters are in the two that might not make it so good? Assuming that M1 already has balance of one type of ester in it, and RL uses a mix of some other esters, could there be a compatibility issue with those in the M brand and those in the RL?

 

[bruce381]

"or do the additives used in a Ester based lubricant and the additives used in a PAO based lubricant conflict with each other?"

I think that can be some of the concern.
or it is based on UOA of that combo.
I'd call RL and ask they would know better than anyone.
Bruce

 

[bkrell]

Do an internet search on esters in motor oil. AutoRx and LC are both esters. So can you really worry 'bout esters and PAOs if you're throwing either of these in your engine w/ a PAO oil? According to the articles I've read, most Group III's are fortified with esters as a way of getting group IV benefits without the price of a full group IV ester based oil. Yes, one benefit is supposed to be removal of deposits ie sludge AND varnish.

Of course, I'm not a tribologist or lube engineer, I don't play one on TV, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

 

[forcedtalon]

I strong feel its best to stick with 1 brand of synthetic oil. Every brand and wt of oil is specially forulated for a purpose. If you like redline use all redline. You may throw off the chemistys of the oils when they are mixed. Motor oils expesially syntheics (amsoil and redline) I personally think are the 2 best quality brands out there and with the long OCI we use today I would rather not guess at what is happing with the oil but just use 1 brand and stick with it.

 

[bkrell]

So, what happens when you change brands of oil. Don't you leave a significant volume of the previous oil in your sump when you drain? Esters and PAOs are mixed all the time.