Ester-based oils? Interesting tech - READ!

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: TDIMeister
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
I wonder how oils can substantially affect the 'net' octane requirements.
If the oil on the cylinder walls burns, you have no lubrication and the engine seizes. Is it then simply the presence of oil while combustion takes place? Is it a slight vaporization of the oil that does this?
Reactivity effects of engine oil is not predicated on any substantial burning of the oil itself to have its effect on knocking, any more than usual consumption in a modern engine.

Interesting about the reactivity effects without significant oil consumption.

But first, welcome to BITOG!

I do know, where there is significant oil consumption as when tracking a car and much more atomized oil is being sucked into the intake tract and burned, it can increase engine knock.
It was a common problem with Porsche 928's when they were in production. An easy solution was running Red Line oil (which is a POE/PAO blend). Didn't of course stop the oil consumption on track but eliminated the detonation.

 

[TDIMeister]

Well there you go! Have you tracked your car at Mosport? I used to live in Oakville and was fairly active in local Auto-X up to around 2005 and also did a track day at Mosport with my then VW Passat TDI in 2003.

My former car.

 

[TDIMeister]

Originally Posted By: bluesubie
I would think that an ester blended with PAO and/or Group III would outweigh ANY other benefits for a passenger car. Where's Tom?

Quote:
Nevertheless, esters are often used in combination with PAOs in full synthetic motor oils in order to balance the effect on seals, solubilize additives, reduce volatility, and improve energy efficiency through higher lubricity. The percentage of ester used can vary anywhere from 5 to 25% depending upon the desired properties and the type of ester employed.


Esters in Synthetic Lubricants.

Thanks for the link! I'll read it more closely and also compare notes when the presentation is published.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: bluesubie
I would think that an ester blended with PAO and/or Group III would outweigh ANY other benefits for a passenger car.


It was always my understanding that group 5s HAD TO BE blended with group 3s, or 4s (on the order of 30% POEs {or less} to 70%PAOs/grp. 3s, {or more}), in order to function properly in an internal combustion engine.

Yes, Tom, Mola, etc.????

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: boxcartommie22
there are very little pao's in red line!!! and no pao's in motul 300v oils/ per red line and motul..this has been beat to death before...infact, i just spoke to dave at red line "our oils are a grp 5 ester oil" i just wanted to make sure i was correct.


Are you SURE about the above??!!

Even though he of course would not admit the % ratio (and believe me, I DID try to get this info from him), EVERY time I've spoken to Dave on this topic he DID admit that ALL of his oils were grp. 4/5 blends.

Just in case you cannot tell by now, I AM A FAN of Red Line's products, so I am most definitely NOT trying to dis/bash their fine line, but I do not think that there can be a functional ALL, 100% POE/other types of esters basestock internal combustion engine motor oil.
The same goes for the excellent 300V.

 

[ltslimjim]

I'd say that even if this happened 'somewhat' on the initial use of a PAO based oil, it would settle down if PAO-base was the norm. Could it be system shock in of itself?

 

[Tom NJ]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
It was always my understanding that group 5s HAD TO BE blended with group 3s, or 4s (on the order of 30% POEs {or less} to 70%PAOs/grp. 3s, {or more}), in order to function properly in an internal combustion engine.

Yes, Tom, Mola, etc.????


PAOs are usually blended into ester based motor oils to balance seals. How much depends on which ester and which PAO. I have seen all ester formulations do well with seals, but I would prefer to see 30-40% PAO added.

Tom NJ

 

[boxcartommie22]

hi dailydriver, i love red line too. i believe what they tell me...red line is a straight shooter.. in the past ,dave said a tad of pao was added but the oils are true grp 5 oils.yesterday,dave said there is a very tiny bit of pao...joey at motul which i speak with all of the time!! he loves my raptor i have his personal email...he sent me a bunch of free stuff hats,shirts, decals!! worth alot!! all free..he said 300 v is all ester!! i believe red line and motul are so popular and relyed upon by very important people in the racing world that don't need to lie to their customers.

 

[84zmyfavorite]

Pablo, I bet I have More AMSOIL than you!

 

[friendly_jacek]

Interesting and intriguing stuff.
I wonder how G-oil fits in this? It's 90% ester according to the GETG website.
Some G-oil reviewers on Amazon mentioned increased MPG with G-oil, but I have some doubts if those people worked for GET.

 

[boxcartommie22]

the auto techs on drive radio and gearheads on sat. said they would never us g oil!!!! they would rather use fresh oil with your change.its garbage!!their tests show...alot of problems with engines come into their shop with destroyed parts from use of g-oil....what i heard..

 

[OldCowboy]

Originally Posted By: boxcartommie22
the auto techs on drive radio and gearheads on sat. said they would never us g oil!!!! they would rather use fresh oil with your change.its garbage!!their tests show...alot of problems with engines come into their shop with destroyed parts from use of g-oil....what i heard..


I don't believe this for one minute. This sounds like a rant from someone with an axe to grind. Reminds me of the "Pennzoil will sludge your engine" [censored]. G-oil is API SM certified and is no worse than any other SM oil.

Oh, and by the way, G-oil is not re-refined oil.

 

[boxcartommie22]

i thought g oil is a recycled oil? i was pretty sure they said g oil...i saw a voa of their racing oil and it is extremely lame unlike other racing oils.

 

[OldCowboy]

A quick use of Google would have popped up their web site. http://www.getg.com/engineOil/5w30.php

 

[TDIMeister]

Thanks for the heads-up re G-Oil but Redline and Motul are more accessible to me. I've got enough oil to last me for the next two OCIs (one jug of Mobil 1 5w30, one jug of Shell Rotella T5 0W-40) and Castrol Syntec 5W-40 in the last interval about 2.5k miles ago. Let the skeptics read the paper once it's published. My motivations are just for the interest of science. If I can get an honest but consistent 1 MPG, that's 2% and is significant enough for me and hey, we've all learned something.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: TDIMeister
Well there you go! Have you tracked your car at Mosport? I used to live in Oakville and was fairly active in local Auto-X up to around 2005 and also did a track day at Mosport with my then VW Passat TDI in 2003.
My former car.

Nice looking car!

Yes Mosport is my home track, so to speak. I've put in 1,000s of miles in anger there over the years. For the past number of years my track car is the Caterham; my little giant slayer.

 

[TDIMeister]

The paper is out.

Comments? Discussion?

 

[boxcartommie22]

so ester oils are the best!!now i know what dave at red line been saying to me why ford (one of many reasons)uses a 5w 20 oils

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: TDIMeister
The paper is out.

Comments? Discussion?


Not a paper yet. Just an initial presentation. Can't wait until the research is complete. SRI is a great lab. Of course some folks have already jumped to conclusions. BITOG at it's best!!

 

[TDIMeister]

OK, presentation, not paper. Whatevs.