EPA approves new refrigerants

Status
Not open for further replies.
R

Rick in PA

Joined
Jan 4, 2003
Messages
3,203
Location
Southeastern, PA
In the Appliance Design magazine (February 2012)there's an article that caught my eye: "EPA Approves Oils as Refrigerant Substitutes". The article opens with "Three coolants, including propane and butane, to replace CFCs and HCFCs have been approved by the Environmental Protection Agency after much prodding from industry and scientists who said the oil-based substitutes are known to be safe." ... The article continued to explain how these acceptable substitutes can be used "in household refrigerators, freezers, combination refigerator-freezers, and commercial stand-alone units."

I honestly have never heard of propane and butane referred to as "oils" (I do understand they are petroleum products). Hmmm.

Let the discussion begin.
 
I read several years ago of people using propane and butane for auto AC's. However the comments of people then was the danger for fire from using them.
 
Awesome news.

When we did engineering, Propane and Ammonia were considered decent refrigerants that had been overblown safety wise by lobby groups with their "non flamable" inventions.

Millions of cars run on Propane in Oz, and accidents, even with 250lb fuel tanks are pretty rare.
 
There are still a few different hydrocarbon refrigerants available for use in automotive a/c units. I have been told it is illegal to use hydrocarbon based refrigerants in most US states, but up here in Canada, they are promoted. I use Duracool in my Silverado, and it works great. Id be more worried about the 98 liters of gas in the fuel tank in an accident than the refrigerant in my a/c system.
 
I've never heard of them referred to oils either. That's a pretty big stretch.

One of the most, if not thee most important design characteristic of a refrigerant is that it be as least toxic and flammable as possible. Obviously flammability is kinda a problem with those.

I can just envision the first 60 minutes expos'e when Mrs Suzie-Q- Public's basement chest freezer springs a leak and torches her house. After that imagine the recalls and lawsuits.

Not a good idea.
 
Just word games by the Govt. If its EPA approved you know theres a scam involved. Yes, ammonia, propane and butane are OLD uses. They are effective tho. John--Las Vegas.
 
Originally Posted By: spock1
What would happen if your compressor or condenser sprang a leak?
Wouldn't your compressor motor ignite the fumes, blowing you to kingdom come?


Probably not, and the mist of oil/refrigerant that sprays out when you punch a hole in an R-12 or R-134a air conditioning system also burns.

The bigger danger with using propane or butane in a car AC, in my unofficial opinion, is a pinhole leak in the evaporator. The low spots in the ductwork fill with propane overnight, spark from the blower motor the next morning makes a big "whuff" sound. :-p
 
Some people were charging automotive R-12 systems with propane (often, from R-12 tanks, frequently filled in Mexico)...miraculously, I do not recall hearing of anyone getting killed. Never a reason to do that...either convert it to R-134a the right way, or open the windows & deal with it!
 
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: spock1
What would happen if your compressor or condenser sprang a leak?
Wouldn't your compressor motor ignite the fumes, blowing you to kingdom come?


Probably not, and the mist of oil/refrigerant that sprays out when you punch a hole in an R-12 or R-134a air conditioning system also burns.

The bigger danger with using propane or butane in a car AC, in my unofficial opinion, is a pinhole leak in the evaporator. The low spots in the ductwork fill with propane overnight, spark from the blower motor the next morning makes a big "whuff" sound. :-p


We probably all agree that it's a bad idea.
 
the reason to do that is efficiency, propane-butane is much more energy efficient so your car engine, fridge, house heat pump wont work so hard.
I switched ours over and it works fine. It runs at a lower pressure and you only need half the charge versus r134a or r22.
Since it runs at a lower pressure, the compressor has a much easier life.

etc...
http://milkyourmoney.com/2010/05/03/diy-how-to-add-refrigerant-to-a-homes-heat-pump/
 
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Some people were charging automotive R-12 systems with propane (often, from R-12 tanks, frequently filled in Mexico)...miraculously, I do not recall hearing of anyone getting killed. Never a reason to do that...either convert it to R-134a the right way, or open the windows & deal with it!


Many posting in this thread are talking about auto applications of propane, R-12 substitutes and whatnot. This article is about HOME and commercial appliances that are in BUILDINGS. Those structures are going to hold these combustible gases way more tightly(unless somehow this "new" wave of flammable refrigerants ushers in new costly building codes to address these dangers) than a car will.

I'll give you that most household refrigerators, freezers, etc. won't be holding a ton of this stuff, but I could easily see a situation where and appliance springs a leak near an a furnace, stove, or water heater and there will be a problem.

I'm not the furthest thing from a nervous-nellie when it comes to safety issues like this, but this is one just needs to go into the stupid file. There are other options.
 
Originally Posted By: sdowney717
the reason to do that is efficiency, propane-butane is much more energy efficient so your car engine, fridge, house heat pump wont work so hard.
I switched ours over and it works fine.


You're running propane/butane in your heat pump and fridge?
 
Put an LFL sensor on it with piercing alarm and compressor lockout. For residential stored inside in a tight space, this should work for minimal $. Set the LFL threshold alarm low enough and you likely don't even need to worry about calibration. If a suitable odorants is used, even moreso.
 
Originally Posted By: sdowney717
the reason to do that is efficiency, propane-butane is much more energy efficient so your car engine, fridge, house heat pump wont work so hard.
I switched ours over and it works fine. It runs at a lower pressure and you only need half the charge versus r134a or r22.
Since it runs at a lower pressure, the compressor has a much easier life.

etc...
http://milkyourmoney.com/2010/05/03/diy-how-to-add-refrigerant-to-a-homes-heat-pump/


An R-134a conversion keeps my (black) de Ville cool in 105-degree heat. Doesn't seem to have lost anything in the conversion!
 
Well, simply mix the propane with some form of Halon
smile.gif
That way, it won't burn...
 
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Well, simply mix the propane with some form of Halon
smile.gif
That way, it won't burn...


But how much more Halon are we producing?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

S
  • Locked
Toxic dangerous new refrigerant Dupont EPA EU
2
Replies
26
Views
6K
sleddriver
dave1251
  • Locked
Exxon Mobil
Replies
19
Views
16K
MolaKule
G
  • Locked
Anything into oil (from Discover Magazine)
2 3
Replies
51
Views
36K
'Tard
Back
Top Bottom