Engine Wear and Long Oil Change Intervals

[TC]

"Any FF over $2 is a waste of money." I beg to differ!

The 1988 AC Filter/Detroit Diesel ASTM study determined that particles in the 2-22 micron range cause most engine wear.

PureOne media min/max pore size, per Grease's Mercruiser study: 11/25 microns
Hastings media min/max pore size, per Grease's Mercruiser study: 21/46 microns

I'm guessing the PureOne might cost $2 more than Hastings, or all of $20 over a typical 5 yr vehicle ownership. If a slight impregnation of dirt doesn't significantly harm flow, hypothetically cutting the PureOne's pore size in half (a random speculative amount) to 6/13 microns, that could certainly explain improved filtration. But in the end, the proper term for this is "clogging." The benefits of bypass filtration become quite clear here, although the logistics and cost-effectiveness of same are less clear.

[ August 22, 2004, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: TC ]

 

[Patman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Mickey_M:



Didn't Red Line at one time say that their anti-wear additive package improved with use?

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They didn't quite say it that way, they had a comparison test between them and Amsoil and showed that their used oil performed better than Amsoil's used oil, so they were suggesting that their oil does not degrade as much as other oils do.

 

[CONMCK]

I have also wondered about higher wear rates with fresh oil only to see it drop as the mileage is accumulated (ppm per 1000 miles). An observation I have made with all my vehicles in the past 20 years, (and I am a do it yourself oil changer) is when I start up my vehicle either cold or warm, the oil pressure always rises immediately and I hear no noises. But when I change the oil and filter and even fill the oil filter, when I start it up, the oil pressure gauge usually takes 2 - 3 seconds to move off zero and it's common to hear some slight rapping/knocking sound from the engine which will disappear as soon as the oil pressure rises. If for some reason I did not fill the oil filter prior to installation, it may take 4 - 5 seconds to register oil pressure at the first startup for the noise to disappear. I'm sure most if not all of you out there would agree with what I'm saying in respect to your own vehicles. So my question, would there be a minimal amount of wear occuring anywhere in the engine that may result in a FEW ppm of wear metals showing up early after the oil change?

 

[dropitby]

Patman: Didn't Red Line at one time say that their anti-wear additive package improved with use?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They didn't quite say it that way, they had a comparison test between them and Amsoil and showed that their used oil performed better than Amsoil's used oil, so they were suggesting that their oil does not degrade as much as other oils do. This really makes sense that the oil starts improving as the oil cures. After all how many VOA seem very good and one that should be not as good turns out to be every bit as good.I would call it a slow starter that gets better with time.Perhaps burning off the excess till the oil makes its move delivering superior results.

 

[427Z06]

I recall a oil study done by some Phd types that made references to another study that when comparing oils it was necessary to condition them for a period of time. I wonder if this is related to the increased wear metals at the beginning of an OCI.

In addition, whenever a particular type of oil is used, even old versus new oil of the same brand, I imagine the wear patterns on the metals changes until new wear patterns are establised. Of course this is all conjecture on my part.

 

[Ugly3]

TC - The 1988 AC Filter/Detroit Diesel ASTM study determined that particles in the 2-22 micron range cause most engine wear.

I believe the test yopu are referring to is the following:
Test Description

What I find interesting is the "conclusion" seems to be based on engine clearances not on tested wear data. There is no mention of how much additional wear there was for the various filters tested.

I wonder if A/C was coming out with a low micron filter and needed "study data" to help wih the marketing.

 

[james1]

Here are a couple of wild theories by a non-engineering type guy.

First - I wonder if the detergent package in new oil is getting the better of the AW agents? In other words, could this be removing some of the anti-wear agents laid down before? Then as the detergent package wears out, the agents can take hold.

Second - This has to do with flow as the king of AW properties. As we have seen from UOA's most oils shear to a lighter weight and most are probably changed before they begin to thicken back up. Could the thinner oil account for the reduced wear?

 

[TC]

The 1988 AC Filter/Detroit Diesel ASTM study..."There is no mention of how much additional wear there was for the various filters tested." Read it again. It's there:

"They chose (diesel) filters whose efficiency rating was very high for particles of 40 micron, 15 micron, 8.5 micron and 7 micron sizes...The same was done for gasoline engines, except that the relative sizes were 40 microns, 30 microns, 25 microns and 15 microns."

"Compared to a 40 micron filter, engine wear was reduced by 50 percent with 30 micron filtration. Likewise, wear was reduced by 70 percent with 15 micron filtration."
http://www.carjunky.com/news/motor_oil/mom7.shtml

"Numerous tests and studies have shown that solid contaminants in the 1-15 micron range are responsible for the majority of normal wear within an engine."
Source: "By-Pass Filters: Taking Your Fleet the Extra Mile" white paper by Donald Culpepper, Gulf Coast Filters Inc. (Link gone, but it may come up in a search.)

 

[Ugly3]

TC - The 1988 AC Filter/Detroit Diesel ASTM study..."There is no mention of how much additional wear there was for the various filters tested." Read it again. It's there:

Sorry, I got so carried away with the prior paragraph I missed it. Thanks.

 

[MolaKule]

quote:

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Their results show pretty conclusively that the anti-wear properties of an oil improve with age. They speculate that the increase performance could be due to accumulation of high MW oxidation products of the base oil or intermediate reaction products of the anti-wear compounds.

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I would use the word "conclusively" rather "cautiously.

In the latest issue of Engineering Tribology, Proceedings of the Institute of Mechanical Engineers, Vol. 218, Part: J Journal of Tribology they were doing tests with various oils and additives to see how low a phosphorus level could be tolerated with respect to valvetrain wear.

Figure 11 shows almost linear increase in wear as oil ages. One of the comments was that wear tapers off as oil ages up to a point, and this was due to the increasing viscosity of oil as it ages.

At over 50 hours of testing and oil sampling, the total cam wear was only 0.43 mg.

There was a slight bump in the graph for zero to two hours of operation where the wear increased only 0.05 mg. I would NOT call this accelerated wear.

The author's comment:

quote:

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"Further experiments are underway to explain this effect."

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BTW, according to this paper, 1.) an engine can tolerate P-levels down to 250 ppm (approx. 0.025%) if supplemental (secondary) anti-wear additives are present.

2.) Surface finish or surface texture has no effect on total friction; friction modification is mainly supplied and due to the oil's lubricity and its FM additive.

[ August 23, 2004, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]

 

[Terry]

"ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL" is the key here in this discussion.

The bonding of the new lubricants adds ( EP, primary and secondary) in a completely clean and otherwise non affected motor will reduce wear and that takes time and can be interuppted by the cleaning, removing,dispersing, and collecting of the older components. You guys that change oil brands (chemistry) all the time really mess things up for a analyst!

Oil filters do become more efficient as they load up except in most internal combustion engines that darn FF filter will bypass before the theoretical efficiency that is quoted above does you the owner in real time any good ! Dashing your dreams of long drains on both the oil and filter.

One oil that has an unusual capabilty to get better with time in a healthy engine is Redlines chemistry and the oil adds and base oils seem to react very favorably with blowby and combustion by product.

Having said that I have found Amsoil of the past to be a better long drain oil if properly kept clean and in grade.

Lube Control has a solvency and NEAR ESTER attribute that does the same type of activity,reducing carbon to a near micro graphite effect at the rings.

LC and Redline are very solvent thus the commonality in the above mentioned observation.

Combining the two in an engine long term seem to work exceptionally well. BTW LC seems to work well with ANY oil chemistry so far including vegetable based lubes, oddly enough.

Since everyone is quoting SAE today;

SAE paper #981078,that is a great description of what I do, states that; "Contaminants and wear metal concentration levels are a function of the rate of contaminant and wear metals generation with respect to oil capacity and time. Generic engine configuration databases exist."

Mapping all the known engine and lubricant signatures known to man is essentially what I have been attempting to do for the past 25+ years ! And I still get tricked.........

Pull the engine off the dyno or test cell and we have variability that is nearly impossible to catalogue. I'm trying though.

Clean well broken in engine, mated oil chemsitry, and control of the variables of..stress,cleanliness,and tune effiency will give you good performance and longevity that all here seek.

Gasoline engine: Auto-RX annually, LC/FP systematically, 10,000 mile drains on reasonable
quality SL/SM oil and filtration and you have the brass ring. Of course verify at least annually with analysis.

Terry

 

[Terry]

crashz, to answer the Auto-RX question of Liquid filter research; no.

I have a customer who is the epitome of near perfectionist who is running a or going to run a metal full flow filter with Redline and Auto- RX to test the theory, no word back from him lately. I promised to research a metal FF filter he was interested in and have yet to finish that evaluation.

TD

 

[dustyjoe1]

quote:

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Second - This has to do with flow as the king of AW properties. As we have seen from UOA's most oils shear to a lighter weight and most are probably changed before they begin to thicken back up. Could the thinner oil account for the reduced wear?

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Hmmm....with the 5w20 oils in mind...most interesting statement.....

 

[kyle morley]

Large ships and similar installations almost never change the oil - they have elaborate filtration systems, and do regular analysis, adjusting the additives as required.

The feeling is that the base oil gets better and better over time, as the more volatile elements burn off, settle, or sludge out (and are removed by the filtration) leaving only the most rugged and stable components.

Sort of like why a lot of race engine builders prefer to start with a used block.

 

[Robbie Alexander]

quote:

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Originally posted by Terry:
-*-*You guys that change oil brands (chemistry) all the time really mess things up for a analyst!-*-*

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What about mainly during initial break in.. are you saying that even there it should be avoided. Chiefly when no sample ar being drawn. Main goal to flush flush flush.

I consider breakin for my truck about 20-30K ish I know you would sooner but I'm talking complete smoothness and performance.

My Contention was to change a lot the first several K (6-10) which I did for 6 about every K.

Hope to Rub all the places as much as I could with different chemistry blends. My contention is some protect X better others Y better others Z better, thus also on the other side of the coin allow a little more wear,
Then change to a Low end better oil then move up after that if desired.