Engine life, synthetic vs. conventional

[oldmaninsc]

Originally Posted By: BubbaFL
Originally Posted By: oldmaninsc

I thought it had been around for quite a few years. I noticed the copyright date on the page you linked to was 2001 - 2010!


In the text of the agreement, it says they started accepting registrations 3/1/2010.

I did the math, and complying with their 4k / 1 year OCI won't cost me any more than I would have spent on Mobil 1, so "why not" use the oil with a better guarantee?

It's a great marketing strategy! Interesting to watch how their program evolves over the next few years, and to see what their claims experience is with certain engines that are notorious for failures of parts they cover (Ford 4.0 SOHC V6 comes to mind, just got done rebuilding mine, wish I had their guarantee on that vehicle!).


This program may have started in 2010 - but Valvoline has had a "warranty" program around for a LOT longer than that!

I'm still skeptical - I don't think that even 5 or 10 years from now Valvoline will have paid for any engines including the Ford 4.0 SOHC engines. They can SAY anything!

 

[oldmaninsc]

Originally Posted By: BubbaFL
Quote:
Timing belt or chain snapped? Not covered.


The Valvoline guarantee does cover oil-lubricated timing components (chains, gears, hydraulic tensioners, guides, etc), and their warranty does not require you to prove that the failure was oil-related - only that the failed parts were oil-lubricated.

I've talked to them about this, and they say they'll cover it even if the failures are clearly a design flaw or quality control problem caused by the manufacturer.

Anybody with a Ford 4.0 SOHC, for example, (terrible design, notorious for timing failures) should look at the valvoline guarantee.



Edit: Did you actually read the link that was posted? Valvoline may have told you xyz on the phone but unless it's in writing . . .

"THIS LIMITED WARRANTY DOES NOT COVER CLAIMS THAT ARE THE RESULT OF: COLLISION OR OTHER ACCIDENT; THEFT; VANDALISM; RIOT; EXPLOSION; EARTHQUAKE; LIGHTNING; FREEZING; OVERHEATING; INTERNAL OR EXTERNAL FIRE; WATER OR FLOOD DAMAGE (INCLUDING PRIOR FLOOD DAMAGE); NEGLIGENT, RECKLESS, KNOWING OR INTENTIONAL DAMAGE; TIMING BELT FAILURE; IMPROPER SERVICE OR MAINTENANCE; DEFECT ATTRIBUTABLE TO THE VEHICLE MANUFACTURER; IMPROPER INSTALLATION OF ANY PART; FLUID CONTAMINATION (I.E., COOLANT, FUEL, WATER OR FOREIGN MATERIAL); OR THE FAILURE TO KEEP THE MOTOR OIL AND ENGINE COOLANT AT LEVELS PRESCRIBED BY THE MANUFACTURER. Valvoline may refuse payment of any claims that otherwise comply with the terms of this Limited Warranty where Valvoline believes in good faith that one or more of these causes contributed to the damage claimed."

"“Qualifying Engine Breakdown” means a) the immediate and apparent total mechanical failure of a Covered Part to work as it was designed to work in normal services, and b) the vehicle electrical, fuel, computer engine management, cooling, induction and exhaust systems are all working properly, and are not the cause of engine failure. A Qualifying Engine Breakdown does not include the reduction in operating performance due to wear and tear, including a reduction in engine compression due to worn rings or valves, or abnormal sounds such as “knocking,” “pinging,” or “rattling” sounds when a breakdown has not occurred.

As was posted earlier:
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
It's a matter of buying a warranty when no warranty is really needed. It's like buying a warranty to ensure that the Sun rises tomorrow.

 

[BubbaFL]

Originally Posted By: oldmaninsc
Did you actually read the link that was posted?


Yes, I read the contract before signing up. A manufacturing defect (bad part) is not the same thing as a poorly designed one (where a part exhibits the same failure mode repeatedly).

Like every consumer contract, they've written plenty of "weasel words" into it, and ultimately it's a matter of trusting the company to do what they say they will.

 

[Artem]

Originally Posted By: oldmaninsc
Originally Posted By: BubbaFL
Quote:
Timing belt or chain snapped? Not covered.


The Valvoline guarantee does cover oil-lubricated timing components (chains, gears, hydraulic tensioners, guides, etc), and their warranty does not require you to prove that the failure was oil-related - only that the failed parts were oil-lubricated.

I've talked to them about this, and they say they'll cover it even if the failures are clearly a design flaw or quality control problem caused by the manufacturer.

Anybody with a Ford 4.0 SOHC, for example, (terrible design, notorious for timing failures) should look at the valvoline guarantee.



Edit: Did you actually read the link that was posted? Valvoline may have told you xyz on the phone but unless it's in writing . . .

"THIS LIMITED WARRANTY DOES NOT COVER CLAIMS THAT ARE THE RESULT OF: COLLISION OR OTHER ACCIDENT; THEFT; VANDALISM; RIOT; EXPLOSION; EARTHQUAKE; LIGHTNING; FREEZING; OVERHEATING; INTERNAL OR EXTERNAL FIRE; WATER OR FLOOD DAMAGE (INCLUDING PRIOR FLOOD DAMAGE); NEGLIGENT, RECKLESS, KNOWING OR INTENTIONAL DAMAGE; TIMING BELT FAILURE; IMPROPER SERVICE OR MAINTENANCE; DEFECT ATTRIBUTABLE TO THE VEHICLE MANUFACTURER; IMPROPER INSTALLATION OF ANY PART; FLUID CONTAMINATION (I.E., COOLANT, FUEL, WATER OR FOREIGN MATERIAL); OR THE FAILURE TO KEEP THE MOTOR OIL AND ENGINE COOLANT AT LEVELS PRESCRIBED BY THE MANUFACTURER. Valvoline may refuse payment of any claims that otherwise comply with the terms of this Limited Warranty where Valvoline believes in good faith that one or more of these causes contributed to the damage claimed."

"“Qualifying Engine Breakdown” means a) the immediate and apparent total mechanical failure of a Covered Part to work as it was designed to work in normal services, and b) the vehicle electrical, fuel, computer engine management, cooling, induction and exhaust systems are all working properly, and are not the cause of engine failure. A Qualifying Engine Breakdown does not include the reduction in operating performance due to wear and tear, including a reduction in engine compression due to worn rings or valves, or abnormal sounds such as “knocking,” “pinging,” or “rattling” sounds when a breakdown has not occurred.

As was posted earlier:
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
It's a matter of buying a warranty when no warranty is really needed. It's like buying a warranty to ensure that the Sun rises tomorrow.


I have to agree. The words over the phone won't do nothing in court when presented with a written warranty clause that says otherwise.

It's smarter to go by what is in the fine print.

 

[oldmaninsc]

Originally Posted By: BubbaFL
Originally Posted By: oldmaninsc
Did you actually read the link that was posted?


Yes, I read the contract before signing up. A manufacturing defect (bad part) is not the same thing as a poorly designed one (where a part exhibits the same failure mode repeatedly).

Like every consumer contract, they've written plenty of "weasel words" into it, and ultimately it's a matter of trusting the company to do what they say they will.

Well good luck. I have a feeling you are splitting hairs here and that Valvoline (or any other major oil company) will as you put it weasel out of it. Just my opinion and of course it's your money and vehicle to do with as you please. I just don't see the sense in it.

 

[artificialist]

My 2003 Saturn ION had a cylinder fall way bellow compression at 90,000 miles. I used only full syn and changed it when the OLM told me too.

That is just plain wrong.


Also, about synthetic versus conventional life... I sometimes deal with VW 1.8T engines. Conventional oil changed every 3000 miles will lead to major problems by 100,000 miles, ones using only synthetic did fine.

 

[kemo]

Originally Posted By: BubbaFL
Originally Posted By: Superbuick96
What year is your RAnger?


97 Explorer, 160k on the clock, just finished rebuilding the motor after a catastrophic timing chain failure.


That was common on the older SOHC 4.0's. I do believe there was a recall. the 4.0 has been stout ever since.

 

[raytseng]

this reminds me of the scene in mad men where they come up with the Lucky Strike slogan "It's toasted". Even though all tobacco from every brand is cooked.

The current oil marketing is along to same lines to get you to psychologically associate that the alternative to what they want you to buy is worse or somehow prone to failure.

Even if your engine fails, they'll make you go through the manufacturer and every other layers of relief first.

 

[electrolover]

i cant speak for warranty but i have a friend with 350k on a dodge pick up. he only uses GTX. i dont think oil choice really matters as long as it meets spec and you maintain your vehicle.

most engine failures happen because one part goes bad like a water pump or an oil pump and then the driver is too ignorant to pull over. women are the worst! they always say "i dont know what happened it just stopped" the smoke bellowing out from under the car wasnt a clue to pull over!!!!!

just watch your gadges and if one goes in the red pull it over

 

[jsjonz01]

You get 2X the warranty because you spend almost 2X the money on the synthetic oil. I like synthetics, but the warranty is just a gimmick, considering you still have to change your oil every 3000-4000 miles to maintain your warranty (even with Synpower, which is a very good oil).

 

[soyeahiknow]

Here are two points to consider.

1.Most of these "Engine Guarantees" require you to keep good records. So if you got your oil changes, you need to keep the receipt. If you diy, you need to keep the store receipt. Here is the thing, most store receipts are printed on a special type of paper what when they are exposed to heat for about 9 month, they start to fade. So good luck trying to prove it with blank pieces of paper from 5 years ago unless you copy/scan everything

2. In the fine prints, they also state that they have the option to pay you the market value of the car. Now think about it, a car with 150k-300k miles is pretty much worthless. Especially since for most people, that means the car is 12-25 years old (based on national average of 12k miles driven a year). How much is a car that old worth anyways?

 

[Jocephus]

most of the "engine guarantees" are nothing more than marketing in order to generate repeat business/owner loyalty.

read the fine print and look at what is covered (very little) and look what you have to do to prove it was the fault of the oil.


Oils are so good nowadays, the probability of something else dying on your vehicle is what's probably going to be the reason you sell/trade/scrap you vehicle...not your engine.

 

[dave1251]

Covered engine parts very little?

“Covered Engine Parts” means all internal "oil wetted" engine parts, including: pistons, piston rings, piston pins, crankshaft and main bearings, connection rods and rod bearings, camshaft and camshaft bearings, timing chain and timing gears, intake and exhaust valves, valve springs, guides, oil pump, push rods, rocker arms, hydraulic lifters and rocker arm shafts. The engine block and cylinder heads are also covered if mechanical failure was caused by a failure of the above-listed parts. Covered Engine Parts does not include the following: a) all fuel system parts, b) all ignition, starting and electrical system parts, c) turbocharger and supercharger systems, d) the Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) system, and e) exhaust manifolds. THIS LIMITED WARRANTY COVERS THE COVERED ENGINE PARTS, INCLUDING LABOR COSTS FOR REPAIR OR REPLACEMENT OF THE COVERED ENGINE PARTS, AND THIS LIMITED WARRANTY COVERS NO OTHER PARTS OR LABOR. Replacement will be made with a part that is of a like kind and quality (i.e., new, remanufactured or used parts) compatible with the original design specifications and wear tolerances of the Covered Vehicle.


What more would you want covered?

 

[surfstar]

Holy thread resurrection Batman!


Originally Posted By: Jocephus
most of the "engine guarantees" are nothing more than marketing in order to generate repeat business/owner loyalty.


I think they're ggrrreat! My cars have way too many miles to qualify, but I've been able to get rebates by both Valvoline and Pennzoil/QS for free after rebate oil. I can guarantee that's a good deal and worth way more than their "engine guarantee"

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: dave1251
What more would you want covered?


They do cover a lot, if you ask me. However, some of the warranties, notably Pennzoil's, in which I'm enrolled, have a fairly low dollar value ceiling, though.

With respect to complaints about requiring to keep receipts that may have a short lifespan, proper storage can help them last years. Aside from that, Pennzoil offers online storage for scanned receipts.

 

[dave1251]

Payment of claims is limited to one (1) claim for the reimbursement of “Qualified Repair Expenses” that you actually pay to repair covered damages. “Qualified Repair Expenses” are defined as (1) actual parts and labor expenses necessarily incurred to repair damaged “Listed Engine Parts”, only, which shall be no more than the time to make repairs or to replace the “Listed Engine Parts”, allocated by Chilton’s Flat Rate Guide or other industry accepted flat rate guide times (x) the commercial repair shop’s posted hourly rate, plus (+), if necessary, the reasonable cost of a replacement engine part of like kind and quality; and (2) incurred within the warranty coverage duration as stated above.

So your mechanic better be accurate and quick. But this limited warranty is not a bad deal from Pennzoil if you change your oil at the factory recommendations.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: dave1251
So your mechanic better be accurate and quick. But this limited warranty is not a bad deal from Pennzoil if you change your oil at the factory recommendations.


For sure. These warranties might be marketing ploys and geared to help create brand loyalty, but there's nothing wrong with that. It would probably be hard to collect, but given the fact that engines failing solely due to the oil (not an engine design flaw, or an OCI mistake by the automaker), when the proper oil viscosity and specifications and interval are used, are exceedingly rare, it's not a big deal.

If one wants to be picky, the Mobil warranties (even for their conventional) are a little more attractive, if less showy. There are less limitations when it comes to mileage, and perhaps costs, too. However, regardless of limitations or the fine print, or even if no warranty is offered, if someone were able to prove that an engine failed solely because of the lube (selected and used correctly of course), he would have a claim against the oil company.

If I got a bad batch of Pennzoil, for instance, that fit my specifications and ruined an engine and the bill were greater than $5,000.00 limit, and I were hypothetically able to completely prove the complete circumstances in court and were willing to go the distance, I suspect Pennzoil would have a hard time enforcing the limit. It would likely be the same if it caused failure twice, regardless of their one claim limit.

It's not going to happen though. An engine blowing due to a shortcoming in a specified Pennzoil, Castrol, Mobil, Ashland, etc. product is a rather unlikely scenario.

ARCO: I know you're reading this. If you check Pennzoil Warranty Terms and Conditions Page 93,752, Volume 3, the second paragraph, you'll see that you and your heirs are expressly forbidden from enrolling or participating in this warranty program in any way, shape, or form.