Where is Filter Guy to give us the reason why this ChampLab filter has a hole ?
Ecore with an Issue
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Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
Bill, I have to disagree. First, OK, whatever the endcaps are, they are NOT sufficient to keep the pleats rigidly in place. In the original picture, you can see the "wavy" shape, and see how the pleats pulled and spread, because they did not have anything holding them firmly in place.
I'm not sure of your point here. Most Champ filters have a variable spread of the pleats on the side where the seam meets (or is that seams meet?). A human pinches the glued pieces together. I don't think that this process has changed at Champ. You'll usually have 3/5 of the thing normal looking ..and a "spread-bunch" section.
Sure, there is some flex in the pleats themselves, and yes, they are not evenly spaced (remember, I've taken apart M1, KN, VC, and STP variants of the CL filters). What I mean is that at least the attachment to the caps, and the caps themselves, is very rigid. And In the USED CL filters I've cut up, I've never seen splaying, warping, or twisting of the pleats like we see in this one. Unless the element in a CL filter actually tore away from the cap cement, the pleats could not splay or spread as this one did.
The damage in the OP's filter seems two-fold. First, there's the splaying/spreading of the pleats. Then, of course, there's the breach. I assume, but certainly can't say for sure, that the two are related. Assuming so, then I doubt a CL would have breached this way, as I don't think it could have splayed that far.
Quote:
Bill, I have to disagree. First, OK, whatever the endcaps are, they are NOT sufficient to keep the pleats rigidly in place. In the original picture, you can see the "wavy" shape, and see how the pleats pulled and spread, because they did not have anything holding them firmly in place.
I'm not sure of your point here. Most Champ filters have a variable spread of the pleats on the side where the seam meets (or is that seams meet?). A human pinches the glued pieces together. I don't think that this process has changed at Champ. You'll usually have 3/5 of the thing normal looking ..and a "spread-bunch" section.
Sure, there is some flex in the pleats themselves, and yes, they are not evenly spaced (remember, I've taken apart M1, KN, VC, and STP variants of the CL filters). What I mean is that at least the attachment to the caps, and the caps themselves, is very rigid. And In the USED CL filters I've cut up, I've never seen splaying, warping, or twisting of the pleats like we see in this one. Unless the element in a CL filter actually tore away from the cap cement, the pleats could not splay or spread as this one did.
The damage in the OP's filter seems two-fold. First, there's the splaying/spreading of the pleats. Then, of course, there's the breach. I assume, but certainly can't say for sure, that the two are related. Assuming so, then I doubt a CL would have breached this way, as I don't think it could have splayed that far.
The top and bottom of the pleats are still held in their original position by the end caps. The end caps didn't fail.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
I'm not sure of your point here. Most Champ filters have a variable spread of the pleats on the side where the seam meets (or is that seams meet?). A human pinches the glued pieces together. I don't think that this process has changed at Champ. You'll usually have 3/5 of the thing normal looking ..and a "spread-bunch" section.
Originally Posted By: ekpolk
Yes, I don't believe those pleats were spread by the oil, instead I think those pleats were as you just described...the typical gap associated with the filter media seam.
On average, for the entire area of the inside of the element, the nylon might be stronger. But it covers far less of the clean side of the element. The metal designs support far more area of the element. If there's a blow-through-prone weak spot in the element, the metal designs are far more likely to support it than the nylon cage is.
Good point. Of course, in that scenario, the ability of the end caps to keep the element pleats in place, and the backing of the steel tube will go a long way to preventing a catastrophic failure.
That said, some conditions are so catastrophic that no filter can withstand them. We had some pics here of an Amsoil filter whose center tube collapsed. All things being equal, I'd prefer the beefier filter.
Unfortunately, we don't know if this situation would have destroyed any filter, not just the ecore. Being completely honest, a traditional filter might have collapesed (center tube), as there was not easy path for the excess pressure to go. In this case, it worked its way through the large openings withing the center tube.
All that said, I suspect the bypass valve failed on this filter...and the truth is, the bypass design is the weakest link with regards to E-cores. Had this filter had a more reliable or traditional bypass...it might not have failed.
It would be really interesting to hear what Champ Labs has to say. Hopefully, they are made aware of this situation. Though, I think the most likely cause of this situation has already been posted.
I'm not sure of your point here. Most Champ filters have a variable spread of the pleats on the side where the seam meets (or is that seams meet?). A human pinches the glued pieces together. I don't think that this process has changed at Champ. You'll usually have 3/5 of the thing normal looking ..and a "spread-bunch" section.
Originally Posted By: ekpolk
Yes, I don't believe those pleats were spread by the oil, instead I think those pleats were as you just described...the typical gap associated with the filter media seam.
On average, for the entire area of the inside of the element, the nylon might be stronger. But it covers far less of the clean side of the element. The metal designs support far more area of the element. If there's a blow-through-prone weak spot in the element, the metal designs are far more likely to support it than the nylon cage is.
Good point. Of course, in that scenario, the ability of the end caps to keep the element pleats in place, and the backing of the steel tube will go a long way to preventing a catastrophic failure.
That said, some conditions are so catastrophic that no filter can withstand them. We had some pics here of an Amsoil filter whose center tube collapsed. All things being equal, I'd prefer the beefier filter.
Unfortunately, we don't know if this situation would have destroyed any filter, not just the ecore. Being completely honest, a traditional filter might have collapesed (center tube), as there was not easy path for the excess pressure to go. In this case, it worked its way through the large openings withing the center tube.
All that said, I suspect the bypass valve failed on this filter...and the truth is, the bypass design is the weakest link with regards to E-cores. Had this filter had a more reliable or traditional bypass...it might not have failed.
It would be really interesting to hear what Champ Labs has to say. Hopefully, they are made aware of this situation. Though, I think the most likely cause of this situation has already been posted.
The pleats did not separate, the end caps were affixed to the media with the pleats in that position.
Originally Posted By: TurboLuver
The pleats did not separate, the end caps were affixed to the media with the pleats in that position.
Well that's reassuring! You mean it actually looked like that from the factory? I'm referring, of course to the position of the pleats only. I thought from the position that they had partially detached in service.
Here's another idea then. Is that the joining seam just to the right of the hole in the medium? Perhaps something (or someone) punctured it while the joint was being secured.
The pleats did not separate, the end caps were affixed to the media with the pleats in that position.
Well that's reassuring! You mean it actually looked like that from the factory? I'm referring, of course to the position of the pleats only. I thought from the position that they had partially detached in service.
Here's another idea then. Is that the joining seam just to the right of the hole in the medium? Perhaps something (or someone) punctured it while the joint was being secured.
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
. . .
The "skimpy plastic" cage is very strong nylon. (send me your address and I'll send you one and you can crush it with your hand for me)
. . .
Plenty of support for the element.
. . .
Bill: I forgot to get back to this one. I will politely decline your offer. As Clint once pointed out, "man's gotta know his limitations." Ironically, though, this is not just idle humor. Rather, I fear that the element might, certainly under abnormal conditions, suffer a fate similar to my hand, were I to try that stunt. The medium immediately outside the nylon would be forcibly held back, while those areas of medium not directly supported might push in through the unsupported areas. That would be painful whether it was my hand, or the filter element.
Oh, yes, I do realize that apparently this is not happening very often (yep, same argument I use when the thick oil guys insist that xw-20 is engine poison...). So I'll readily agree that this is probably something that would happen under very extreme circumstances.
. . .
The "skimpy plastic" cage is very strong nylon. (send me your address and I'll send you one and you can crush it with your hand for me)
. . .
Plenty of support for the element.
. . .
Bill: I forgot to get back to this one. I will politely decline your offer. As Clint once pointed out, "man's gotta know his limitations." Ironically, though, this is not just idle humor. Rather, I fear that the element might, certainly under abnormal conditions, suffer a fate similar to my hand, were I to try that stunt. The medium immediately outside the nylon would be forcibly held back, while those areas of medium not directly supported might push in through the unsupported areas. That would be painful whether it was my hand, or the filter element.
Oh, yes, I do realize that apparently this is not happening very often (yep, same argument I use when the thick oil guys insist that xw-20 is engine poison...). So I'll readily agree that this is probably something that would happen under very extreme circumstances.
Originally Posted By: SWHeat
Well then buy your better filter and quit bashing a filter that works just fine
yea it looks like that filter really worked huh?
and i have some of them $1.45 filters from AAP that i would run anyday over a superjunktech...
Well then buy your better filter and quit bashing a filter that works just fine
yea it looks like that filter really worked huh?
Cause of death: .22LR to the kidney.
Originally Posted By: ekpolk
Originally Posted By: TurboLuver
The pleats did not separate, the end caps were affixed to the media with the pleats in that position.
Well that's reassuring! You mean it actually looked like that from the factory? I'm referring, of course to the position of the pleats only. I thought from the position that they had partially detached in service.
Here's another idea then. Is that the joining seam just to the right of the hole in the medium? Perhaps something (or someone) punctured it while the joint was being secured.
Yes the pleats are secured to the end cap in that position.
Yes that is the joining seam to the right of the hole.
Originally Posted By: TurboLuver
The pleats did not separate, the end caps were affixed to the media with the pleats in that position.
Well that's reassuring! You mean it actually looked like that from the factory? I'm referring, of course to the position of the pleats only. I thought from the position that they had partially detached in service.
Here's another idea then. Is that the joining seam just to the right of the hole in the medium? Perhaps something (or someone) punctured it while the joint was being secured.
Yes the pleats are secured to the end cap in that position.
Yes that is the joining seam to the right of the hole.
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Originally Posted By: TurboLuver
Originally Posted By: ekpolk
Originally Posted By: TurboLuver
The pleats did not separate, the end caps were affixed to the media with the pleats in that position.
Well that's reassuring! You mean it actually looked like that from the factory? I'm referring, of course to the position of the pleats only. I thought from the position that they had partially detached in service.
Here's another idea then. Is that the joining seam just to the right of the hole in the medium? Perhaps something (or someone) punctured it while the joint was being secured.
Yes the pleats are secured to the end cap in that position.
Yes that is the joining seam to the right of the hole.
I think part of the point ekpolk is making is that the end cap is FLEXIBLE, so the media is allowed to deform significantly........Potentially THROUGH the cage, and possibly resulting in this media breach......
Originally Posted By: ekpolk
Originally Posted By: TurboLuver
The pleats did not separate, the end caps were affixed to the media with the pleats in that position.
Well that's reassuring! You mean it actually looked like that from the factory? I'm referring, of course to the position of the pleats only. I thought from the position that they had partially detached in service.
Here's another idea then. Is that the joining seam just to the right of the hole in the medium? Perhaps something (or someone) punctured it while the joint was being secured.
Yes the pleats are secured to the end cap in that position.
Yes that is the joining seam to the right of the hole.
I think part of the point ekpolk is making is that the end cap is FLEXIBLE, so the media is allowed to deform significantly........Potentially THROUGH the cage, and possibly resulting in this media breach......
Originally Posted By: SWHeat
A theory not mentioned thus far is that the bypass mechanism failed and hence the media failure.
Already said mentioned, back many pages ago ...
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Also, if the bypass valve doesn't work very well or is set too high, and the filter gets loaded up too much (sludge engine) to cause a big PSID across the media, it could very well collapse and tear open at any weak point like seen in the photos.
A theory not mentioned thus far is that the bypass mechanism failed and hence the media failure.
Already said mentioned, back many pages ago ...
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Also, if the bypass valve doesn't work very well or is set too high, and the filter gets loaded up too much (sludge engine) to cause a big PSID across the media, it could very well collapse and tear open at any weak point like seen in the photos.
Originally Posted By: pzev
Unfortunately, we don't know if this situation would have destroyed any filter, not just the ecore. Being completely honest, a traditional filter might have collapesed (center tube), as there was not easy path for the excess pressure to go. In this case, it worked its way through the large openings withing the center tube.
All that said, I suspect the bypass valve failed on this filter...and the truth is, the bypass design is the weakest link with regards to E-cores. Had this filter had a more reliable or traditional bypass...it might not have failed.
It would be really interesting to hear what Champ Labs has to say. Hopefully, they are made aware of this situation. Though, I think the most likely cause of this situation has already been posted.
Agreed ... and keep in mind that the bypass valve is supposed to keep something like this happening if there is excessive loading causing a high PSID across the media.
Ideally, a bypass valve should operate well enough to flow the full volume of oil in a case where the filter media becomes completely blocked. So it's possible that even IF the bypass valve was working as 100% as designed, it could be under designed and not allow enough bypass flow, thereby causing excessive PSID and media collapse through a wide open center cage design that can't fully support the pleats.
Unfortunately, we don't know if this situation would have destroyed any filter, not just the ecore. Being completely honest, a traditional filter might have collapesed (center tube), as there was not easy path for the excess pressure to go. In this case, it worked its way through the large openings withing the center tube.
All that said, I suspect the bypass valve failed on this filter...and the truth is, the bypass design is the weakest link with regards to E-cores. Had this filter had a more reliable or traditional bypass...it might not have failed.
It would be really interesting to hear what Champ Labs has to say. Hopefully, they are made aware of this situation. Though, I think the most likely cause of this situation has already been posted.
Agreed ... and keep in mind that the bypass valve is supposed to keep something like this happening if there is excessive loading causing a high PSID across the media.
Ideally, a bypass valve should operate well enough to flow the full volume of oil in a case where the filter media becomes completely blocked. So it's possible that even IF the bypass valve was working as 100% as designed, it could be under designed and not allow enough bypass flow, thereby causing excessive PSID and media collapse through a wide open center cage design that can't fully support the pleats.
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This looks like the girl that pressed the pleats together had her nails just done. Someone was sleeping at the air test ..or said screw it because his/her boss was sending the defect rate performance figure static down hill and wanted to give him/her what they wanted to hear.
Lubeowner had tons of Warner (Champ) filters that had breached media. As many as he wanted to find. The only ones without breaches (ever) were the GM versions. All of them looked like they were put through a glaze marinating process and were obviously way over due for service.
One could sensibly argue in either direction. One shouldn't expect a $1.50 item to endure infinitely (open ended) severe service without showing its limits. OTOH, someone could expect just that and feel that the static features and engineered safety mechanisms do their job ..forever.
I tend to look at the common symptoms that accompany the failure. While lubeowner continually perseverated on the clicker bypass being defective, he totally ignored that each and every filter with a media breach looked like it was used in some failure analysis testing. He refused to note the mileage on the odometer on his returning customers rides to reference the time/miles in service. Given the appearance of the media, they were all on beaters that the owner eventually remembered to get the oil changed.
I still lean toward the chick having sharpened nails, weakening the media at that point. It may have passed the air test.
Lubeowner had tons of Warner (Champ) filters that had breached media. As many as he wanted to find. The only ones without breaches (ever) were the GM versions. All of them looked like they were put through a glaze marinating process and were obviously way over due for service.
One could sensibly argue in either direction. One shouldn't expect a $1.50 item to endure infinitely (open ended) severe service without showing its limits. OTOH, someone could expect just that and feel that the static features and engineered safety mechanisms do their job ..forever.
I tend to look at the common symptoms that accompany the failure. While lubeowner continually perseverated on the clicker bypass being defective, he totally ignored that each and every filter with a media breach looked like it was used in some failure analysis testing. He refused to note the mileage on the odometer on his returning customers rides to reference the time/miles in service. Given the appearance of the media, they were all on beaters that the owner eventually remembered to get the oil changed.
I still lean toward the chick having sharpened nails, weakening the media at that point. It may have passed the air test.
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: pzev
So it's possible that even IF the bypass valve was working as 100% as designed, it could be under designed and not allow enough bypass flow,
the bypass on a 99 sunfire is in the oil pump not the filter.
Originally Posted By: pzev
So it's possible that even IF the bypass valve was working as 100% as designed, it could be under designed and not allow enough bypass flow,
the bypass on a 99 sunfire is in the oil pump not the filter.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: daman
Originally Posted By: SWHeat
Well then buy your better filter and quit bashing a filter that works just fine
yea it looks like that filter really worked huh?
and i have some of them $1.45 filters from AAP that i would run anyday over a superjunktech...
Of which e-core filter do you refer? It must be the OP as certainly my ST16 e-core held up quite nicely, even with excessive carbonaceous materiel overload. Good to hear you got in on the $1.45 deal for the AA filters. Two year supply here, but again would not hesitate to use a ST e-core for the 3K Auto-RX cleaning phase again. It held up nicely. Did you see the pic? Or just conveniently ignore it as the end caps held as designed??
Originally Posted By: SWHeat
Well then buy your better filter and quit bashing a filter that works just fine
yea it looks like that filter really worked huh?
Of which e-core filter do you refer? It must be the OP as certainly my ST16 e-core held up quite nicely, even with excessive carbonaceous materiel overload. Good to hear you got in on the $1.45 deal for the AA filters. Two year supply here, but again would not hesitate to use a ST e-core for the 3K Auto-RX cleaning phase again. It held up nicely. Did you see the pic? Or just conveniently ignore it as the end caps held as designed??
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: SWHeat
A theory not mentioned thus far is that the bypass mechanism failed and hence the media failure.
Already said mentioned, back many pages ago ...
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Also, if the bypass valve doesn't work very well or is set too high, and the filter gets loaded up too much (sludge engine) to cause a big PSID across the media, it could very well collapse and tear open at any weak point like seen in the photos.
You da' man! It must have been all of that PSID talk that confused me.
Originally Posted By: SWHeat
A theory not mentioned thus far is that the bypass mechanism failed and hence the media failure.
Already said mentioned, back many pages ago ...
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Also, if the bypass valve doesn't work very well or is set too high, and the filter gets loaded up too much (sludge engine) to cause a big PSID across the media, it could very well collapse and tear open at any weak point like seen in the photos.
You da' man! It must have been all of that PSID talk that confused me.
Originally Posted By: caravanmike
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
So it's possible that even IF the bypass valve was working as 100% as designed, it could be under designed and not allow enough bypass flow,
the bypass on a 99 sunfire is in the oil pump not the filter.
You probably mean the filter bypass is in the engine block (near the filter mount), not in the oil pump. The oil pump's pressure relief valve is in the pump ... you're probably mixing up terminology.
If the filter bypass valve is indeed in the engine block, then that just enforces the theory (since the engine filter bypass was probably working) that the media was weak in that spot and failed from prolonged PSID across the filter.
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
So it's possible that even IF the bypass valve was working as 100% as designed, it could be under designed and not allow enough bypass flow,
the bypass on a 99 sunfire is in the oil pump not the filter.
You probably mean the filter bypass is in the engine block (near the filter mount), not in the oil pump. The oil pump's pressure relief valve is in the pump ... you're probably mixing up terminology.
If the filter bypass valve is indeed in the engine block, then that just enforces the theory (since the engine filter bypass was probably working) that the media was weak in that spot and failed from prolonged PSID across the filter.
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