^You have some sound points. I'd use a blend of E-85 up to 30% volume of the fill with any other E10 fuel(quote unquote), then throw in an UCL for the fears.
"E85 Does not harm Non-FlexFuel Engines"
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I´ve used straight e-85 in my durango with no
illeffects that ive noticed.
It used 30% more fuel and became sligtly
harder to start when cold below freezing temps.
It also sneezed sometimes before it went into closed loop and the lamda could straighten things up.
The computer didnt adopt so far that it illuminated cel
so it wasent running lean. It actually settled long term
fueltrim on 1.33 wich is about the energy difference between
gas and e-85.( it should be around 1 on gas)
illeffects that ive noticed.
It used 30% more fuel and became sligtly
harder to start when cold below freezing temps.
It also sneezed sometimes before it went into closed loop and the lamda could straighten things up.
The computer didnt adopt so far that it illuminated cel
so it wasent running lean. It actually settled long term
fueltrim on 1.33 wich is about the energy difference between
gas and e-85.( it should be around 1 on gas)
I'm almost done with my tank, about 150 miles left. Got SEL today, checked with my scanner, code P0171, lean code. guess my car didn't like it. Shell v-power, here I come back
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with voice inflection, they kept referring to 105 K miles as some monumental task--which we all know it isn't. 205 K is not monumental either IMO
Originally Posted By: zyxelenator
I'm almost done with my tank, about 150 miles left. Got SEL today, checked with my scanner, code P0171, lean code. guess my car didn't like it. Shell v-power, here I come back
My car is designed for lean-burn. I wonder what a straight tank of E-85 would do.
I'd probably do a half-half mix and add the normal dosage of MMO for good measure if I did anything.
I'm almost done with my tank, about 150 miles left. Got SEL today, checked with my scanner, code P0171, lean code. guess my car didn't like it. Shell v-power, here I come back
My car is designed for lean-burn. I wonder what a straight tank of E-85 would do.
Originally Posted By: zyxelenator
Vehicles today (mid-1980s and later) are built to withstand and resist corrosion, which means E85 is very unlikely to harm or corrode a vehicle's fuel system in any way."
Tell that to the hordes of MINI owners with destroyed fuel systems from overblended ethanol. (still less than 85%)
BMW noted that rapid corrosion of fuel pump parts, sludge in the oil pan, plugged filters, and other damage are their main concerns with the new regulations for E15 gas
Vehicles today (mid-1980s and later) are built to withstand and resist corrosion, which means E85 is very unlikely to harm or corrode a vehicle's fuel system in any way."
Tell that to the hordes of MINI owners with destroyed fuel systems from overblended ethanol. (still less than 85%)
BMW noted that rapid corrosion of fuel pump parts, sludge in the oil pan, plugged filters, and other damage are their main concerns with the new regulations for E15 gas
I just had my WRX tuned to run E85. At the time it was a little over 30% cheaper than 93, so it was saving me a few pennies.
The main reason for me was HP. I was tuned on 93 and made 269hp at the wheels, on E85 it put down 312. The graph was much smoother due to it being a higher quality fuel for performance. My MPGs suck though. 19 all highway vs 25/26 all highway on 93.
The power increase and fun factor are definitely worth it to me. To [censored] with the nay sayers...
Only complaint other than MPGs is the exhaust smell is nauseating if im at a light with my windows down.
The main reason for me was HP. I was tuned on 93 and made 269hp at the wheels, on E85 it put down 312. The graph was much smoother due to it being a higher quality fuel for performance. My MPGs suck though. 19 all highway vs 25/26 all highway on 93.
The power increase and fun factor are definitely worth it to me. To [censored] with the nay sayers...
Only complaint other than MPGs is the exhaust smell is nauseating if im at a light with my windows down.
What's wierd is that with it not causing any damage, my buddy just had his lexus fuel rail replaced under a recall for non-ethanol compatibility. Here is an excerpt of the recall notice, "
On January 16, 2009, Toyota filed a Defect Information Report (DIR) with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) regarding certain 2006 2007 GS 300/350, 2006 2008 IS 250/350 and 2007 2008 LS 460/460L vehicles. The involved vehicles are equipped with aluminum fuel delivery pipes (fuel rails). Lexus has determined that ethanol fuels with low moisture content will corrode the internal surface of the fuel rails. As this condition progresses the engine malfunction light (MIL) may illuminate. Over time, the corrosion will create a pinhole resulting in fuel leakage. SSC 9LA will be launched to replace the Fuel Delivery Pipes in the affected vehicles.
"
On January 16, 2009, Toyota filed a Defect Information Report (DIR) with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) regarding certain 2006 2007 GS 300/350, 2006 2008 IS 250/350 and 2007 2008 LS 460/460L vehicles. The involved vehicles are equipped with aluminum fuel delivery pipes (fuel rails). Lexus has determined that ethanol fuels with low moisture content will corrode the internal surface of the fuel rails. As this condition progresses the engine malfunction light (MIL) may illuminate. Over time, the corrosion will create a pinhole resulting in fuel leakage. SSC 9LA will be launched to replace the Fuel Delivery Pipes in the affected vehicles.
"
Originally Posted By: skypants
I just had my WRX tuned to run E85. At the time it was a little over 30% cheaper than 93, so it was saving me a few pennies.
The main reason for me was HP. I was tuned on 93 and made 269hp at the wheels, on E85 it put down 312. The graph was much smoother due to it being a higher quality fuel for performance. My MPGs suck though. 19 all highway vs 25/26 all highway on 93.
The power increase and fun factor are definitely worth it to me. To [censored] with the nay sayers...
Only complaint other than MPGs is the exhaust smell is nauseating if im at a light with my windows down.
hmmm...and the MPG drop you experienced revealed the true nature of E85. Cheaper per gallon? Yes.
Cheaper per mile? No.
Fundamentally, E85 has fewer BTU per gallon than gasoline. 10% ethanol blended gasloine is about 111K BTU/gal. E85 is about 82K BTU/gal. That's about 74% the energy content per gallon of blended gasoline in E85. So, your mileage will be about 3/4 of what it was on gasoline - and that's exactly what your numbers reveal. Since the cost was 30% cheaper, and the distance traveled was about 26% shorter, it worked out to be the same cost per mile.
You didn't save any pennies on this...what you got was a fuel that allowed you to increase boost because of its resistance to detonation...and reduced the world's food supply in the bargain by allocating corn production for fuel...
Ethanol is great for racing fuel - its detonation resistance allows higher compression or boost (if turbo) - but it makes no sense for the street as long as it comes from corn...until we come up with a way to make ethanol using something that people can't eat, then, I guess you have to put me in the naysayer category...sorry...
I just had my WRX tuned to run E85. At the time it was a little over 30% cheaper than 93, so it was saving me a few pennies.
The main reason for me was HP. I was tuned on 93 and made 269hp at the wheels, on E85 it put down 312. The graph was much smoother due to it being a higher quality fuel for performance. My MPGs suck though. 19 all highway vs 25/26 all highway on 93.
The power increase and fun factor are definitely worth it to me. To [censored] with the nay sayers...
Only complaint other than MPGs is the exhaust smell is nauseating if im at a light with my windows down.
hmmm...and the MPG drop you experienced revealed the true nature of E85. Cheaper per gallon? Yes.
Cheaper per mile? No.
Fundamentally, E85 has fewer BTU per gallon than gasoline. 10% ethanol blended gasloine is about 111K BTU/gal. E85 is about 82K BTU/gal. That's about 74% the energy content per gallon of blended gasoline in E85. So, your mileage will be about 3/4 of what it was on gasoline - and that's exactly what your numbers reveal. Since the cost was 30% cheaper, and the distance traveled was about 26% shorter, it worked out to be the same cost per mile.
You didn't save any pennies on this...what you got was a fuel that allowed you to increase boost because of its resistance to detonation...and reduced the world's food supply in the bargain by allocating corn production for fuel...
Ethanol is great for racing fuel - its detonation resistance allows higher compression or boost (if turbo) - but it makes no sense for the street as long as it comes from corn...until we come up with a way to make ethanol using something that people can't eat, then, I guess you have to put me in the naysayer category...sorry...
^I wonder if that's why my mileage has been tanking this summer.
MolaKule
Staff member
I used 50% E85 on a recent trip with my '08 TrailBazer (5.3L) and didn't notice any difference in performance or fuel mileage.
However, I read that E85 burns hotter than E10.
I'll try and find the article.
Methanol is the most corrosive of all alchys.
However, I read that E85 burns hotter than E10.
I'll try and find the article.
Methanol is the most corrosive of all alchys.
I definitely believe that E85 burns hotter than E10.
Originally Posted By: Astro14
You didn't save any pennies on this...what you got was a fuel that allowed you to increase boost because of its resistance to detonation...and reduced the world's food supply in the bargain by allocating corn production for fuel...
Ethanol is great for racing fuel - its detonation resistance allows higher compression or boost (if turbo) - but it makes no sense for the street as long as it comes from corn...until we come up with a way to make ethanol using something that people can't eat, then, I guess you have to put me in the naysayer category...sorry...
IIt has not had any effect on the worlds food supply, we have an over supply of cheap corn, made possible by subsidies and cheap foreign oil. So much corn in fact, that industrial food companies are coming up with newer ways to make food with it every day. Only because it is cheap!
I do everything I can to avoid foods made with No.2 Field corn. I dont buy meat from a grocery store, where it is all fed corn. If they stopped forcing animals to eat a diet that makes them sick, then we would have even more corn!
Off my soap box.
You didn't save any pennies on this...what you got was a fuel that allowed you to increase boost because of its resistance to detonation...and reduced the world's food supply in the bargain by allocating corn production for fuel...
Ethanol is great for racing fuel - its detonation resistance allows higher compression or boost (if turbo) - but it makes no sense for the street as long as it comes from corn...until we come up with a way to make ethanol using something that people can't eat, then, I guess you have to put me in the naysayer category...sorry...
IIt has not had any effect on the worlds food supply, we have an over supply of cheap corn, made possible by subsidies and cheap foreign oil. So much corn in fact, that industrial food companies are coming up with newer ways to make food with it every day. Only because it is cheap!
I do everything I can to avoid foods made with No.2 Field corn. I dont buy meat from a grocery store, where it is all fed corn. If they stopped forcing animals to eat a diet that makes them sick, then we would have even more corn!
Off my soap box.
Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
I definitely believe that E85 burns hotter than E10.
Incorrect, E85 burns cooler than gas. It contains more oxygen, burns slower, and much cooler. EGTs drop by several hundred deg. with E85. It is a much safer fuel for your engine than gas.
I definitely believe that E85 burns hotter than E10.
Incorrect, E85 burns cooler than gas. It contains more oxygen, burns slower, and much cooler. EGTs drop by several hundred deg. with E85. It is a much safer fuel for your engine than gas.
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Originally Posted By: skypants
Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
I definitely believe that E85 burns hotter than E10.
Incorrect, E85 burns cooler than gas. It contains more oxygen, burns slower, and much cooler. EGTs drop by several hundred deg. with E85. It is a much safer fuel for your engine than gas.
E85 burns slower than E10? How does that explain why fuel economy suffers using E85, even in a flex-fuel vehicle? From my experience, it increases your consumption rate.
It; E85, has less energy than E10 per gallon. You're talking about basically an alcohol diluted with some gasoline and additives; which has less effective BTU/gallon that gasoline does. Of course, when you use the E85 as a racing fuel it's able to run super rich without detonation compared to gasoline(more volatile and 'explosive', not desirable because you want clean/even burn). The less energy per gallon, in E85, can thus allow for the feel(actual as well) of increased power for instance and this may be in relation to the effective octane increase(105 standard) and no drag in timing/spark advance is created from lower octane gas as we know it today(leaded fuels in the past is another story) and so it may burn cleaner as a result and is less volatile than gas, so THAT (to me) is why a car with higher octane needs and/or the ability(injector capable/compression ratio/tuning etc; as well as flex-fuel apps) to generate more performance/response with E85.
Maybe we're talking about 2 different things. E85 is consumed at a faster rate than gasoline(even e10). More movement in general typically means more heat is created, so while it may burn cleaner and at a more 'stable' rate, it doesn't mean it runs cooler alone. I'd like to talk about the particulars on that.
I'm a noob, so take what I question with a grain of salt. I'm sure someone else can explain it better.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent#E85
Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
I definitely believe that E85 burns hotter than E10.
Incorrect, E85 burns cooler than gas. It contains more oxygen, burns slower, and much cooler. EGTs drop by several hundred deg. with E85. It is a much safer fuel for your engine than gas.
E85 burns slower than E10? How does that explain why fuel economy suffers using E85, even in a flex-fuel vehicle? From my experience, it increases your consumption rate.
It; E85, has less energy than E10 per gallon. You're talking about basically an alcohol diluted with some gasoline and additives; which has less effective BTU/gallon that gasoline does. Of course, when you use the E85 as a racing fuel it's able to run super rich without detonation compared to gasoline(more volatile and 'explosive', not desirable because you want clean/even burn). The less energy per gallon, in E85, can thus allow for the feel(actual as well) of increased power for instance and this may be in relation to the effective octane increase(105 standard) and no drag in timing/spark advance is created from lower octane gas as we know it today(leaded fuels in the past is another story) and so it may burn cleaner as a result and is less volatile than gas, so THAT (to me) is why a car with higher octane needs and/or the ability(injector capable/compression ratio/tuning etc; as well as flex-fuel apps) to generate more performance/response with E85.
Maybe we're talking about 2 different things. E85 is consumed at a faster rate than gasoline(even e10). More movement in general typically means more heat is created, so while it may burn cleaner and at a more 'stable' rate, it doesn't mean it runs cooler alone. I'd like to talk about the particulars on that.
I'm a noob, so take what I question with a grain of salt. I'm sure someone else can explain it better.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent#E85
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I am fully aware that E85 has less energy and requires more fuel for proper combustion.
But there is no more movement in my engine now than with 93. It still only turns 7500rpms. Does more movement create more heat? yes, but I dont understand where more fuel required = more movement and thus more heat.
Im no engineer, engine builder, or tuner. All I can do is foreword the info I received when I had my car at the shop getting tuned to run it. Call COBB Tuning in Plano, TX or COBB Tuning headquarters in Austin, TX COBBtuning.com. They can fill you in.
AS far as running "super rich" goes, running rich is what keeps detonation from happening, not a cause of it, running lean can lead to detonation, as far as i know. The extra fuel keeps the temps down.
I also have my doubts that E85 burns "cleaner." It burns different and emits most of same chemicals, all be it in different percentages.
This article talks about "regulated" emissions which may be lower, but what about the unregulated emissions? Are they more, less, or just as harmful? I dont know if the data is being collected.
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/vehicles/emissions_e85.html
But there is no more movement in my engine now than with 93. It still only turns 7500rpms. Does more movement create more heat? yes, but I dont understand where more fuel required = more movement and thus more heat.
Im no engineer, engine builder, or tuner. All I can do is foreword the info I received when I had my car at the shop getting tuned to run it. Call COBB Tuning in Plano, TX or COBB Tuning headquarters in Austin, TX COBBtuning.com. They can fill you in.
AS far as running "super rich" goes, running rich is what keeps detonation from happening, not a cause of it, running lean can lead to detonation, as far as i know. The extra fuel keeps the temps down.
I also have my doubts that E85 burns "cleaner." It burns different and emits most of same chemicals, all be it in different percentages.
This article talks about "regulated" emissions which may be lower, but what about the unregulated emissions? Are they more, less, or just as harmful? I dont know if the data is being collected.
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/vehicles/emissions_e85.html
the flame temp of alcohol is lower because it contains less energy.
More fuel helps this also.
So e85 does produce lower temps.
Thats simplifying it and of course you can pick it apart with technical terms but I think the idea is understood?
More fuel helps this also.
So e85 does produce lower temps.
Thats simplifying it and of course you can pick it apart with technical terms but I think the idea is understood?
Okay, thank you both for helping me see that clearly. I had heard of 'hear say' that ethanol fuels burned hotter, and this was being 'assumed' apparently that it was from heat that certain part failures were beginning to be thrown towards ethanol. Perhaps more corrosive(in other words, aggressively cleansing), but not as a result of more heat?
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We have had quite a lot of different problems with E85 here in Sweden and E85 cars are now quite common, The text below is from a Swedish newspaper.
My own observation has been that the E85 engines are very nasty inside and it have been issues with valve seats getting broken off with major engine damage.
Would i run E85? NO! Too much problems.
Too high concentrations of sulfate in ethanol E85 fuel can cause engine damage. Ford Sweden recommends Flexifuel customers to fill up with gasoline until further notice. Although confusion with bus fuel E95 has occurred.
A month ago, Presented data showing that there has been an accidental mixing of the ethanol fuel E85 and the "diesel fuel" E95, which is used by mostly ethanol buses in public transport. The confusion has occurred in some oil companies and has been running since late 2009.
Although very small amounts of E95 blended into the E85 can cause engine damage when the oil system is clogging. In a joint statement from the Automotive Sweden and Swedish Petroleum Institute, SPI, promising the oil companies to take on the cost of any damage suffered. Where a garage is suspecting engine damage due to clogged oil lubrication system they will turn to the oil companies.
Another cause of engine damage due to E85 comes from a suspected high proportion of sulphate. According to Ford Sweden a high level of sulfate in E85 led to valves and injectors in the fuel system being clogged, leading to starting problems and that the engine light comes on. In some cases, the car would not run at all.
At the end of last week Ford Sweden issued a recommendation to its customers, through letters, that until further notice refuel with gasoline instead of E85 in flex-fuel models.
My own observation has been that the E85 engines are very nasty inside and it have been issues with valve seats getting broken off with major engine damage.
Would i run E85? NO! Too much problems.
Too high concentrations of sulfate in ethanol E85 fuel can cause engine damage. Ford Sweden recommends Flexifuel customers to fill up with gasoline until further notice. Although confusion with bus fuel E95 has occurred.
A month ago, Presented data showing that there has been an accidental mixing of the ethanol fuel E85 and the "diesel fuel" E95, which is used by mostly ethanol buses in public transport. The confusion has occurred in some oil companies and has been running since late 2009.
Although very small amounts of E95 blended into the E85 can cause engine damage when the oil system is clogging. In a joint statement from the Automotive Sweden and Swedish Petroleum Institute, SPI, promising the oil companies to take on the cost of any damage suffered. Where a garage is suspecting engine damage due to clogged oil lubrication system they will turn to the oil companies.
Another cause of engine damage due to E85 comes from a suspected high proportion of sulphate. According to Ford Sweden a high level of sulfate in E85 led to valves and injectors in the fuel system being clogged, leading to starting problems and that the engine light comes on. In some cases, the car would not run at all.
At the end of last week Ford Sweden issued a recommendation to its customers, through letters, that until further notice refuel with gasoline instead of E85 in flex-fuel models.
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Originally Posted By: magnus308
Another cause of engine damage due to E85 comes from a suspected high proportion of sulphate. According to Ford Sweden a high level of sulfate in E85 led to valves and injectors in the fuel system being clogged, leading to starting problems and that the engine light comes on. In some cases, the car would not run at all.
At the end of last week Ford Sweden issued a recommendation to its customers, through letters, that until further notice refuel with gasoline instead of E85 in flex-fuel models.
The sulphur would have had to be left over as contamination from another source, say storage, transfer, production, etc..
Maybe the refinery... Sounds like a mistake to me.
If you are burning gasoline over a period of time, carbon build up is a concern when switching to an alcohol fuel. It will dislodge deposits that the gasoline additives can't. It can leave you with undesirable results, such as clogged pumps, filters, injectors, sticky valves.....
Another cause of engine damage due to E85 comes from a suspected high proportion of sulphate. According to Ford Sweden a high level of sulfate in E85 led to valves and injectors in the fuel system being clogged, leading to starting problems and that the engine light comes on. In some cases, the car would not run at all.
At the end of last week Ford Sweden issued a recommendation to its customers, through letters, that until further notice refuel with gasoline instead of E85 in flex-fuel models.
The sulphur would have had to be left over as contamination from another source, say storage, transfer, production, etc..
Maybe the refinery... Sounds like a mistake to me.
If you are burning gasoline over a period of time, carbon build up is a concern when switching to an alcohol fuel. It will dislodge deposits that the gasoline additives can't. It can leave you with undesirable results, such as clogged pumps, filters, injectors, sticky valves.....
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