E-core (so much for all the testing)

Winston · May 9, 2005

There are a few different "aging" stages in a filter medias life.

1. At the filter factory. I would bet this is very short, as Filter Guy stated due to inventory costs.

2. On the shelf at the store. This would vary on the type of store and how common the model of filter is.

3. In the users garage. This could be quite long, based on some of the BITOG users "hoarding" mentality.

4. In use in the car, bathed in oil. This is the aging that I was worried about. Oil breaks down cellulose fibers. Doesn't it? The aging that takes place when the filter is in use would be much more rapid that just letting the filter set on the shelf. IMHO

y_p_w · May 9, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by Winston:
There are a few different "aging" stages in a filter medias life.

1. At the filter factory. I would bet this is very short, as Filter Guy stated due to inventory costs.

2. On the shelf at the store. This would vary on the type of store and how common the model of filter is.

3. In the users garage. This could be quite long, based on some of the BITOG users "hoarding" mentality.

4. In use in the car, bathed in oil. This is the aging that I was worried about. Oil breaks down cellulose fibers. Doesn't it? The aging that takes place when the filter is in use would be much more rapid that just letting the filter set on the shelf. IMHO

Perhaps the ideal would be to switch to 100% plastic cartridge filters or at least 100% plastic/glass filter media. I'm wondering what the shelf life of polyester might be.

Filter guy · May 10, 2005

Winston:
"4. In use in the car, bathed in oil. This is the aging that I was worried about. Oil breaks down cellulose fibers. Doesn't it? The aging that takes place when the filter is in use would be much more rapid that just letting the filter set on the shelf. IMHO "

Cellulose media filters are either precured ( whiteish in color) or heat cured by the filter company when the element is built ( the brownish media).

In any event oil filter media is treated with resins or chemicals to strenghten the fibers to withstand oil over the "usefull" life of the element.

loudist · May 10, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by Filter guy:

The problem is, and i've said this before, one can look at something and lay blame. Easy to do.
But unless one has the facts of the situation you are commenting from a lack of knowledge or understanding.

To give you an example: Next time you drive by a car accident..could you take a picture..go to court and tell everyone exactly why it took place? Was someone on their cell phone, adjusting the stereo, did the brakes fail, throttle lock, yet just from visually seeing something you know what caused the problem.

Unless you see a pattern of failures of the same make car, crash in the same way.
It didn't take that many Pintos burning in the early 70's to figure out that the gas tank design was the problem, not the driver or the guy who filled the tank.
In this scenario, lubeowner is the tow truck driver who has scraped up that third Bar B Qued Pinto in a week. He KNOWS that there is a problem with Pintos from his experience of their failures.

quote:

Which gets back to lubeowners pics. And it gets tiring asking for basic information instead of just posting some picture and everyone playing Perry Mason and agreeing with the first one who criticizes.
So something during the filters use has changed the media..if in fact it is "brittle" as claimed.
Yet, when he posts that..people in here post..I don't want a brittle media filter. Maybe the real answer is..I wouldn't buy the car that filter was used on.

Again flawed logic.
Do you really think all the failures he has discovered comes from the same make of car or engine?
The common thread was Champion filters.

quote:

There isn't one filter manufacturer that uses media in their filters where they expect the media to turn brittle. Yet, lubeowner has made that claim based on what he "sees". He wants to blame the filter. If you want to join his crusade, go ahead.

Again, he has nothing to gain, you seem to like to baffle with bullpucky, deflecting for champion.

quote:

Filter media suppliers don't supply crap media. Filter companies have done extensive testing on media before a particular media is used. I know from Champs perspective they have rejected media which doesn't meet their spec and they test every incoming lot of media. So it's reasonable to assume other filter companies do as well.

Assume is the operative word.
Yet Champs are the ones failing with all those 'precautions'.

quote:

I personally have every confidence in the media for every filter brand.

Your sales pitch is now more like an infomercial.
Spin on your Fram.

Filter guy · May 10, 2005

I don't know of any filter manufacturer that is going to take delivery of a year supply of media.
Where would they store it?

Generally, it's a week or so supply.

So they use what they get in relatively fast.

However, media in spin-on filters after they've been made have approximately a 5-7 year shelf life depending who you talk to. This depends how they were stored and what environmental elements they were exposed to..dusty conditions, humidity/moisture, and heat/cold.

There are reasons for how media can become brittle during it's service life....

Gary Allan · May 10, 2005

quote:

Again flawed logic.
Do you really think all the failures he has discovered comes from the same make of car or engine?
The common thread was Champion filters.

I believe he means that you wouldn't want to buy THAT car, regardless of model from THAT owner. It's a POS ..whether it's an MB or a Chevette.

It's like seeing too many cold sores on a prospective date. The basic model and make may be just fine ..but the mileage and service duty may be substantial.

quote:

It didn't take that many Pintos burning in the early 70's to figure out that the gas tank design was the problem, not the driver or the guy who filled the tank.

Well, it only took one undercranked film by Ford to get Ralph Nader to destroy the Corvair. And they're the ones that gave us the pinto. Nor does any frequency of "viewing" mean much if not indexed for total sampling. If that were the case then our liberal media could be taken totally for "face value".

Any reason to do the same thing here??

[ May 11, 2005, 01:32 AM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]

Filter guy · May 10, 2005

Loudist..

Very nice.

Twist and turn all you want about logic.

Twist about cars being recalled. Or models not selling because consumers hate them, etc.
--------------------------------------------

The very simple fact, even you might be able to grasp, is that the filter..regardless of brand... was made without defects and meets or exceeds manufacturers specifications *.

It is the resultant use of the filter which causes the filter to exhibit problems.

Simple as.
-------------------------------------------

It is not the filters fault when vehicle owners let thier oil run low, or overfill their oil, or abuse their oil, or use the wrong grade of oil for their car, or have their oil additive package deplete out because they went to long between oil changes.

It is not the filters fault when sludge builds up in the oil and oil pan.

It is not the filters fault when the pressure regulating valve malfunctions and sends excessive pressure to the filter causing failure modes.

It is not the filters fault when vehicle owners do not maintain their cooling and air filtration systems properly.

It is not the filters fault when vehicle owners do not follow the guidlelines on recommended oil change intervals.

* Unless you can provide any evidence that any OEM has a service bulletin out saying any brand of filter or a specific filter manufacturer will void their engine warranty.

And unless you can provide evidence that a specific brand of filter will void engine warranty then you're the one blowing smoke.

It's all a filter manufacturers conspiracy don't you know. They want to sell $2 filters so they can spend $5,000 or so rebuilding engines..

loudist · May 10, 2005

quote:

It's all a filter manufacturers conspiracy don't you know. They want to sell $2 filters so they can spend $5,000 or so rebuilding engines..

Filter companies rebuild engines?
Never happenes, another weasle sales pitch.

quote:

The very simple fact, even you might be able to grasp, is that the filter..regardless of brand... was made without defects and meets or exceeds manufacturers specifications *.

So you use wallyworld Frams then, right?

quote:

It is not the filters fault when vehicle owners let thier oil run low, or overfill their oil, or abuse their oil, or use the wrong grade of oil for their car, or have their oil additive package deplete out because they went to long between oil changes.

It is not the filters fault when sludge builds up in the oil and oil pan.

It is not the filters fault when the pressure regulating valve malfunctions and sends excessive pressure to the filter causing failure modes.

It is not the filters fault when vehicle owners do not maintain their cooling and air filtration systems properly.

It is not the filters fault when vehicle owners do not follow the guidlelines on recommended oil change intervals.

Citeing rare case exceptions are you?
Here people go much longer than OCI recommendations without reported filter problems.
Why do some OEM recommend filter changes every other OCI?

quote:

And unless you can provide evidence that a specific brand of filter will void engine warranty then you're the one blowing smoke.

Do a search... there have been incidents that some weasle dealerships have done to weasle out of a warranty.

Meanwhile, most of your scenarios don't apply to lubeowner, does it.

Its more obvious that you are a shill for champion.

I don't blame lubeowner for not inviting you to his shop, as you would do the same baffle dance here against him.

Winston · May 10, 2005

quote:

From Lubeowner; Cellulose media filters are either precured ( whiteish in color) or heat cured by the filter company when the element is built ( the brownish media).

Can you tell us a little more about this curing of the media? What is the "precuring" method done by the media mfg's? Any spec for these methods that defines the media's life?

Filter guy · May 11, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by Winston:

quote:

From Lubeowner; Cellulose media filters are either precured ( whiteish in color) or heat cured by the filter company when the element is built ( the brownish media).

Click to expand...

Can you tell us a little more about this curing of the media? What is the "precuring" method done by the media mfg's? Any spec for these methods that defines the media's life?

Winston..

Precure is done by the paper/media supplier. It is a chemical treatment to strenghten the fibers.

Resin cured media is cured by the filter manufacturer. It is accomplished by sending the media/element through an oven. Sometimes in multiple stages. Eventually time and temperature in the oven(s) cure the resins in the media which gives the media more structural strength.

Precured stay a white--offwhite type color because it does not go through an oven.

The resin cured type element takes on a buff, tan, brownish type color due to the curing process.

Filter guy · May 11, 2005

Loudist:
"Filter companies rebuild engines?
Never happenes, another weasle sales pitch."

First, you might use a spell checker..happens.

Second, one of the people who posts in this forum explained where his engine claim was paid by Champion labs when a filter was mismanufactured. I suppose your calling him a liar as he mentioned the warranty managers name who sent him the service report and requested the repair bills.

Third: if only all the filter companies knew they didn't have to pay warranty claims. Geez they'd be estactic. All the lab time, the people expense, the insurance companies to hassle with, man they'd save bunches on an annual basis. To bad a number of good employees would get laid off in the warranty, engineering, and lab departments at all the companies.

Why don't you send them all an email and suggest they do just that as they don't pay for warranties anyway. Maybe they'll cut you in for some money for such a cost saving suggestion.

And when you're done with the filter companies go send emails to the automotive OEM's as well. You'll be rich..

Fourth: as your weasel alert alarm keeps going off I suggest you go dig a big hole---or is it small hole-- somewhere (don't tell us where) and go cover yourself up. I bet they won't find you and you'll be safe.

loudist · May 11, 2005

Wait a minute... does that mean that champion filters do fail?
This is progress.
Post the link of the persons post who got a new engine from the filter company.
I wonder how one proves engine damage from a failed filter to collect on that warranty...

BTW, when someone is pointing out spelling errors in a post, it means they lost.

Weasle alert still pinging.

E-core (so much for all the testing)

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