E-15 fuel in approval stages

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The sky is falling... The sky is falling... Seems to be the mantra around here.

E15 has been legal for sale for some time. Only parts of the country are affected by the summer sales ban.

EPA approved the use of E15 fuels in 2011 - yes, 7 years ago. It approved them for use in 2001 and newer vehicles based on a weak study, but that is a story for another day. If you've bought a car in the last 5 years that still doesn't allow for the use of E15, your automaker has its head in the sand.

E15 is for sale here in the Twin Cities at quite a few retailers. Usually marketed as Super Unleaded or Unleaded 88. It does not replace regular, 87 octane E10, which is still for sale. It usually takes the place of Midgrade, 89 octane fuels here.

The catch is many retailers sell the 88 octane at a lower price than regular, and often put it as the big price or top one on the fuel signage, and then when folks come in and fuel up, they grab the 87 pump and pay a higher price. Many times the retailer across the street is selling 87 octane at the lower 88 octane price of their competitor. Pays to know what you are buying.

They do not "water down" the blend to keep E15 at 87 octane. All marketed at 88 octane here.

I've burned some E15 in my 2016 F150. I've found the octane to be higher as observed by monitoring the octane adjustment ratio via torque. (Ecoboosts can and do take advantage of higher octane fuels). Unfortunately, the fuel mileage drops as expected, and I have not found the cost savings to cover the lower fuel mileage. Others experience may vary.

The sky isn't falling. This is not the only fuel that will be for sale. It works fine if your automaker didn't stick its head in the sand for a fuel that has been legal for use in it since 2011. I don't like ethanol for other reasons, but E15 is not the end of the world.
 
That first generation of vehicles pinged like crazy when they took the lead out. It was a big problem. Cars were so leaned out that they had dangerous hesitation when trying to accelerate. Used to drive me crazy.
 
It's not the end of the world, so long as this does not represent a slippery slope to enact planned obsolescence by eventually phasing out E0 and E10 entirely.

Given that there is a pollution increase factor involved, one is forced to ask, "Why are we doing this anyway?"
 
Its around not close to me but I drive by some of the stations

the e15 blend is usually offered at the same pumps that sell e85

they mix the e85 with the 87 octane and sell it as 88octane afaik.

There are a couple out by niles(youngstown) for example.
 
Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by JayhawkRoy
There is no requirement for anyone to use the stuff. This merely allows for year round sales of E15. In some locations, E15 is available for nine months a year, anyway. All other ethanol variations (including E0) will still be available.

Not always, where oxygenated fuel is mandated you cannot purchase E0.


Like the entire state of California.
 
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Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo
Originally Posted by czbrian
The slightly higher octane over regular 87 octane may have a small benefit.


That's the thing... there is NO octane benefit, because they blend in stuff weaker than 87 with the ethanol to get it back to 87 octane. They don't start with 87 octane and then add ethanol. They use the ~105 octane number of the ethanol to get it up to snuff. Which obviously isn't a 1:1 tradeoff.
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The E15 is 88 octane in my area so there is a small benefit. You are thinking of E10 / 87 octane.
 
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Plenty of places here in eastern NC that sell regular E0 fuel.

Been running E15 for two years now with no issues in a 2012 Cruze 1.4 turbo.

I run a 50/50 mix of 93 and E85 in my 2002 Silverado with a 5.3 that isn't a FF vehicle and runs great and has been for two years as well.
 
People pay big bucks for "Flex Fuel" engines too but here in New Hampshire there is not one single gas station that sells E85 to the public. As far as I know there is only one station in Massachusetts.
 
Originally Posted by loneryder
That first generation of vehicles pinged like crazy when they took the lead out. It was a big problem. ...
That was one issue with engines not designed for unleaded. The other one was valve seat recession, unless they were upgraded, or keeping engine speed below about 3KRPM (according to an SAE magazine article about that problem.)
 
Taking the lead out had a purpose at least. Ethanol fuels have dubious benefits at best. Not just because of the fuel itself, but every shady and corrupt thing that goes into its making.
 
Originally Posted by wdn
People pay big bucks for "Flex Fuel" engines too but here in New Hampshire there is not one single gas station that sells E85 to the public. As far as I know there is only one station in Massachusetts.


At least two: one in Chelsea, one in Seekonk. They are the only ones in New England.
 
I have done a TON of ethanol fuel research over the years (mostly in the mid 80's)

One thing concerns me:
Acetic acid in the exhaust stream

Yes, it is true - ask any advanced chemist. Acetic acid (found in vinegar) is developed when ethyl alcohol burns.

What else has acetic acid? SILICONE SEALER - the stuff that say right on the tube "will harm oxygen sensors"!

I can only deduce that Ethyl Alcohol as a fuel, in high concentrations, will eventually kill your oxygen sensors.
 
Originally Posted by Linctex
I have done a TON of ethanol fuel research over the years (mostly in the mid 80's)

One thing concerns me:
Acetic acid in the exhaust stream

Yes, it is true - ask any advanced chemist. Acetic acid (found in vinegar) is developed when ethyl alcohol burns.

What else has acetic acid? SILICONE SEALER - the stuff that say right on the tube "will harm oxygen sensors"!

I can only deduce that Ethyl Alcohol as a fuel, in high concentrations, will eventually kill your oxygen sensors.


I wonder how long it takes to kill the O2 sensors? Been running E85 for two years now in my non FF 2002 Silverado with no issues, Just a nice clean tailpipe.
 
Originally Posted by Jarlaxle
Originally Posted by wdn
People pay big bucks for "Flex Fuel" engines too but here in New Hampshire there is not one single gas station that sells E85 to the public. As far as I know there is only one station in Massachusetts.


At least two: one in Chelsea, one in Seekonk. They are the only ones in New England.


Randolph and the first service area on the pike westbound.

Mass is funny. Very liberal but not environmental at all. People litter like crazy and they shoot seals because they eat the fisherman's catch.
 
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Ok well first off I'll admit I only have a minor in chemistry, so I'm not an "advanced chemist". But the combustion of EtOH does not yield acetic acid. It yields carbon dioxide and water vapor.

Originally Posted by Linctex
I have done a TON of ethanol fuel research over the years (mostly in the mid 80's)

One thing concerns me:
Acetic acid in the exhaust stream

Yes, it is true - ask any advanced chemist. Acetic acid (found in vinegar) is developed when ethyl alcohol burns.

What else has acetic acid? SILICONE SEALER - the stuff that say right on the tube "will harm oxygen sensors"!

I can only deduce that Ethyl Alcohol as a fuel, in high concentrations, will eventually kill your oxygen sensors.
 
Originally Posted by kschachn
Ok well first off I'll admit I only have a minor in chemistry, so I'm not an "advanced chemist". But the combustion of EtOH does not yield acetic acid. It yields carbon dioxide and water vapor.


Ethanol (CH3CH2OH) reacts with oxygen gas (O2) from the air to form water (H2O) and acetic acid (CH3COOH) - The main ingredient in vinegar.

It yields carbon dioxide and water vapor - - - IF and ONLY IF the combustion process is 100.0000% perfect, which it never, ever is
 
Originally Posted by Linctex
Ethanol (CH3CH2OH) reacts with oxygen gas (O2) from the air to form water (H2O) and acetic acid (CH3COOH) - The main ingredient in vinegar.

If you say so. Can you diagram out that reaction for me please?

Also can you comment on the stability of acetic acid at combustion temperatures?
 
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