Dual Purpose 2 Cycle Oil

Blue99 · Dec 19, 2003

A number of non-synthetic 2 cycle TCW-3 oils are marketed as dual purpose, for both outboard and air cooled engine applications.

Examples are: Pennzoil Premium Multipurpose 2 Cycle,
Chevron 2 cycle TCW-3,
Conoco Hydroclear XHP 2-Cycle Engine Oil

These oils are all ashless, yet claim to provide protection from deposit formations and ring sticking in air cooled applications at the higher cylinder temps and rpm’s.

Besides the TCW-3 certification, apparently some of these oils are passing the JASO-FB air cooled engine test for lubricity, torque, detergency, smoke & exhaust port blocking.

A good API TC Lo Ash detergent oil will pass the next testing level, JASO-FC.

The point is some of the newer TCW-3 no ash oils will no doubt function in air cooled engines for occasional use. An example would be a string trimmer run for 5 hours or less in a season.

But, someone, please explain to me, why recommend or use a TCW-3 oil in a snowblower-chainsaw-blower-mower application when so many good API-TC Lo Ash oils are available?

Hasbeen · Dec 21, 2003

Outboard engines are characterized by their constant speed, high output operation. They are usually set at a desired high speed and continue at that speed until the destination is reached and then throttled down. Also, they are constantly cooled with fresh, cool, non-recirculated water. Chain saws, on the other hand, are a high action operation. They are constantly started and stopped, used for short periods and frequent overloads are its hard place in life. Additionally they have smaller displacements than outboards and are air-cooled. By understanding how the operation of an engine can affect the oil used and how an oil can affect the engine, we can better appreciate the difference between a water cooled two-cycle oil and one formulated for an air-cooled two-cycle engine.

Water-cooled two-cycle engine oils require higher levels of a heavy oil to prevent piston and cylinder wall scuffing. Because of their high average piston temperature, lighter oils evaporate too quickly from the piston cylinder contact area. The heavy base oil, which vaporizes at very high temperatures, resists evaporation and remains in place to provide lubrication to the piston and cylinder. Air-cooled oil formulations must have much lower levels of the heavy base oil than water-cooled engine oils. These oils require only a small amount of heavy oil to pro vide protection against piston scuffing and seizure at peak temperatures. Heavy levels of heavy base oils in an oil formulated for air-cooled engines can cause engines deposits.

These deposits form as a result of incomplete burning of the heavy oil. The deposits can cause piston ring sticking and can eventually plug or disrupt the flow of the exhaust system, resulting in power loss and possible engine damage. Detergent additives should not be used in water-cooled two-cycle oil formulations. When burned with the fuel, detergents can produce an ash deposit in the cylinders. This ash deposit can possibly foul spark plugs, form exhaust port deposits which cause loss of power, and possibly create cylinder hot spots that can cause destructive pre-ignition.

Now with that said, Use a TC-W 3 or one specified for that use in your outboard!!

Use an oil specified for air cooled engines in your air cooled engine!

Using an air cooled engine oil in your outboard will just gum things up, but using an outbourd oil in your aircooled engine can cause engine failure!

Hasbeen

TooSlick · Dec 21, 2003

I'd recommend an ISO EGD+ and/ or JASO FC rated, two stroke oil for small, air cooled engines ....

Tooslick
www.lubedealer.com/Dixie_Synthetics

Hasbeen · Dec 21, 2003

I`m not selling oil, but I would deffinatly reccomend the Amsoil 100:1 oil for all your air cooled engines! I`ve used it for 25+ years with excellent results, and NO failures!

Hasbeen

cousincletus · Dec 21, 2003

Amsoil 100:1 also works well in outboard engines.

Hasbeen · Dec 22, 2003

cousincletus:

You are absolutly correct in that the 100:1 works well (excelent) in outboard engines! I am now however having trouble deciding whether to use the 100:1 or the new injector oil at a premix of 50:1 in my merc 150!

Hasbeen

blano · Dec 22, 2003

Blue99, TcW3 oils that are marketed as dual purpose oils always have the words "for use in air and water cooled engines requiring tcw3 oil" or something to that effect on the container. In reality tcw3 oils perform abbismaly in aircooled engines and almost always result in piston, exhaust port deposits and ultimatley ring sticking. For air cooled or high output/lopad water cooled motors a ISO-L- EGD oil is the one to use. Outboards are fine with a tcw3 oil. Some of the better tcw3 oils are Injex by Phillips and Nautilus by Shell.

blano · Dec 22, 2003

quote:

These oils are all ashless, yet claim to provide protection from deposit formations and ring sticking in air cooled applications at the higher cylinder temps and rpm’s.

They can claim anything they want. Its fact that ashless dispersants do not work in high heat situations.

quote:

Besides the TCW-3 certification, apparently some of these oils are passing the JASO-FB air cooled engine test for lubricity, torque, detergency, smoke & exhaust port blocking.

The Jaso FB test is quit old and has been superceded by FC which intern has been exceeded in most test areas by ISO-L-EGD. There is a large gap in performance between FC and EGD and a even greater one between EGD and FB.

quote:

The point is some of the newer TCW-3 no ash oils will no doubt function in air cooled engines for occasional use. An example would be a string trimmer run for 5 hours or less in a season.

The will not fail imediatly, but you are cutting the service life by half or more. The Fishing Lodge I run has several pieces of OPE that where ran on tcw3 oils for years. The have 100 hours or less on them, yet internaly they are filthy and two have stuck rings and scuffed barrels.

quote:

ut, someone, please explain to me, why recommend or use a TCW-3 oil in a snowblower-chainsaw-blower-mower application when so many good API-TC Lo Ash oils are available?

Most companys reccomend a api tc or iso egd oil for aircooled use. The exception to this statement would be lawnboy and toro snowthrowers. Both use simular engines that are kept at more or less constant throttle. I believe the oems are specing ashless oil to prohibit plug fouling when used like this. However, I have ran a iso egd oil at 32:1 in both of these motors (LB mower and toro snowblower) and have never fouled a plugs.

[ December 22, 2003, 06:01 PM: Message edited by: blano ]

userfriendly · Dec 26, 2003

Blano
Would you consider a water cooled MX bike a high heat application requireing a TC or an EG-D?

I agree with your earlier submission that the oil in a 2-stroke engine's pre-mix has to seperate out from it's fuel carrier before it can lubricate the engine.
Here must lie the catch. (pun intended)
The oil must be soluble enough to blend with the fuel without seperating out unintended.
Yet,I would imagine that perhaps insoluble enough to resist washing off from engine parts during operation.
Therefore, 2-stroke engine manufactures must pay mind as to the RPM range and path or flow the lubricant takes once seperated out of the mixture.
In saying that, and this is my guess work, the 100:1 ratio seems like a slippery slope to me and a poor way to save a couple of bucks on oil.
Sure, it may work in one application, but change one variable, like RPM, temperature, gasoline brand and typicals, engine type and load, and the whole mess goes up in smoke.
And it may be a long paddle home.
Question: I pretty much use Shell's EG-D, Advance Ultra, in most everything I own 2-stroke, if for no other reason because that is what I can find, and its cheap.
When used in water cooled MX bikes, I have been mixing at around 38-40:1.
Should I experment and try and see how much oil I can run?
It may be likely that the better riders on say 125s can tolerate more oil than the intermeadiates, because they keep the loads and RPMs much higher around a given course.
Do you think the little MX 85s may need a little more oil than the 125s, and the 125s more oil than the 250s if they can operate on it without problems?
Can better oils operate on a higher oil concentration than the lesser oils, say 28:1 instead of 50:1?

[ December 26, 2003, 08:59 PM: Message edited by: userfriendly ]

blano · Dec 27, 2003

quote:

Would you consider a water cooled MX bike a high heat application requireing a TC or an EG-D?

YES!

quote:

Do you think the little MX 85s may need a little more oil than the 125s, and the 125s more oil than the 250s if they can operate on it without problems?

Depending on the application and rider skill level I would run no less than a 32:1 ratio. For an A or B class 125 rider. 28:1 would be about right. For an A or B 85 rider 20:1 would be about right. These recoomendations are with the assumption that the bikes are jetted right. A poorly tuned bike will burn a 50:1 mix dirty.

quote:

Can better oils operate on a higher oil concentration than the lesser oils, say 28:1 instead of 50:1?

Yes. mobil mx2t burns clean and smokelss at 20:1. Not all oils do.

As a general rule. The higher the rpm, load and temperature the mor eoil you run. I actually run my cr500af at 32:1 on Mx2T because I run all my two stroke at that ratio.
As for Shell advance. Its good stuff, but you might get some unburnt oil residue coming out the eexhaust with its use because it uses a high flash point solvent to improve pumpability in the winter. This is a problem with all injector oils.

[ December 27, 2003, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: blano ]

Buzzsaw · Feb 11, 2004

I use Mobil1 MX2T in all of my Chainsaws, Brushcutter and string trimmers at 32:1 and I have very little smoke. It is about the same as Echo power blend oil mixed to 50:1.

Dual Purpose 2 Cycle Oil

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