Does the sulfated ash (SA) level really matter for intake-valve deposits (IVD)?

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by buster
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
Gohkan, I think I found something that I actually agree with you on 100%. IVD comes from inferior oils and/or poor maintenance, not from high SAPS. There's fleets of vehicles with GDI engines using high SAPS oils with 3000+ppm Ca and no IVD issues nor LSPI issues.



That also makes no sense.

IIRC Euro 4 oils are by definition lower SAPS. These oils were introduced in around 2006 in order to meet new emissions requirements. A lot has changed in over a decade. Engine turning and PCV systems have evolved over this time as well as the widespread adoption of turbo charging. Consequently a specific amount IVD do not impact all engines the same way. Due to these inherent variations it's wildly speculative to claim that lower-SAPS don't reduce IVD.


Gohkan doesn't know whether the base oils for the Euro 3 were "superior" or "inferior" to the Euro 4 oil. He's just assuming they were based on some preconceived notion.


Any test should be keeping variables consistent, that's my issue if that was the case in the study.

Oil A should be identical in composition to oil B other than the altered chemistry.


And you know the oils used in the Lubrizol study weren't the same because?

 

[buster]

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by buster
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
Gohkan, I think I found something that I actually agree with you on 100%. IVD comes from inferior oils and/or poor maintenance, not from high SAPS. There's fleets of vehicles with GDI engines using high SAPS oils with 3000+ppm Ca and no IVD issues nor LSPI issues.



That also makes no sense.

IIRC Euro 4 oils are by definition lower SAPS. These oils were introduced in around 2006 in order to meet new emissions requirements. A lot has changed in over a decade. Engine turning and PCV systems have evolved over this time as well as the widespread adoption of turbo charging. Consequently a specific amount IVD do not impact all engines the same way. Due to these inherent variations it's wildly speculative to claim that lower-SAPS don't reduce IVD.


Gohkan doesn't know whether the base oils for the Euro 3 were "superior" or "inferior" to the Euro 4 oil. He's just assuming they were based on some preconceived notion.


Any test should be keeping variables consistent, that's my issue if that was the case in the study.

Oil A should be identical in composition to oil B other than the altered chemistry.


And you know the oils used in the Lubrizol study weren't the same because?


I don't have access to the study. It was stated that the oils were not the same. I AM saying that they should be identical. Do you have a link to the study?

 

[buster]

I want to re-read the Afton study, which did show a correlation between ash levels and IVD's.

 

[CT8]

Originally Posted by spasm3
So how important do you see noack? Is that a good measure of the base oil?

meaningless for intake deposits Noack is for oil thickening and loss of mpgs. oil mist /droplets in the crankcase and blow by gunk is what makes the deposits.

 

[buster]

Originally Posted by CT8
Originally Posted by spasm3
So how important do you see noack? Is that a good measure of the base oil?

meaningless for intake deposits Noack is for oil thickening and loss of mpgs. oil mist /droplets in the crankcase and blow by gunk is what makes the deposits.


Seems to be the case per the Afton study as it was found that whole oil droplets, and not mist, was making its way on to the valves.

Reality is, some engines by design are just more prone to this due to their PCV setup. Oil can help to some degree but the jury is still out on this as you can see by this post.

Also, if someone wants to try and find out what makes Valvoline Modern Engine good for IVD's be my guest.

All I could find out about that product is it does have a lower SA, decent Noack (10% for 0w20) and some unique detergent system, so Valvoline claims. They claim 40% reduction per industry standard testing but don't list the tests used to claim that.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by buster
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl

And you know the oils used in the Lubrizol study weren't the same because?


I don't have access to the study. It was stated that the oils were not the same. I AM saying that they should be identical. Do you have a link to the study?



I don't.

I've only seen the Lubrizol presentation.

 

[CT8]

Originally Posted by buster
I want to re-read the Afton study, which did show a correlation between ash levels and IVD's.

Are we thinking evaporated oil has additives in it? The most deposits come from crankcase ventilation which is oil droplets and combustion by products.

 

[pbm]

So... am I better off using generic GIII synthetic like ST, QSUD etc in 5w20 or even 0w20 every 6 or 7K
in my Focus 2.0 GDI or one of the better syns. like M1EP or AP for the full 10K OCI that the OLM seems to allow?
I would feel wasteful going less than 10K on those oils. I'm asking about this from an IVD point of view of course.

 

[buster]

Originally Posted by pbm
So... am I better off using generic GIII synthetic like ST, QSUD etc in 5w20 or even 0w20 every 6 or 7K
in my Focus 2.0 GDI or one of the better syns. like M1EP or AP for the full 10K OCI that the OLM seems to allow?
I would feel wasteful going less than 10K on those oils. I'm asking about this from an IVD point of view of course.


I would say in any GDI engine, don't push it too far. One of the things XOM did when testing M1 AP was using GDI engines. However, they never showed the intake valves. That would have been nice.

I would say the two most important factors for IVD's are:

1. Buy an engine from a manufacturer that doesn't have much of an issue with them due to good design.
2. Use a high quality oil with a good base oil, decent Noack and mid SAP level.

Being none of us are formulators, we're simply guessing and going off studies we read about. Internet tribologists lol.

High Performance Lubricants states the following:

https://www.advlubrication.com/coll...SVu5EYBiCV6BuBchcntbiNAj7-0yDRVSIhb9YeVs

"Formulated with specifically chosen esters which helps to minimize intake valve deposits, maintain a clean engine and maintain elastomer compatibility. HPL PCMO has low overall detergent levels to combat low speed pre-ignition (LPSI) making it a perfect oil for gasoline direct injected (GDI) engines and small displacement turbocharged gasoline engines."

HPL oils IMO are top notch.

 

[buster]

https://patents.google.com/patent/CA2578668C

"Abstract
Intake valve deposits in a direct injection internal combustion engine are reduced by lubricating the engine with a lubricant that is substantially free of ashless organic friction modifiers and whose base oil has a Noack volatility of less than 12 mass %."

"BACKGROUND OF THE INVENTION

Direct injection engines are those in which fuel is injected inside the cylinders of the engine, thereby enabling the amount of fuel burned and the timing of injection to be controlled precisely. A problem with such engines is that deposits tend to build up on the intake valves to unacceptable levels thereby interfering with the closing, motion and sealing of the valves. The efficiency of the engine is thus reduced and maximum power is limited. This is particularly evident in those engines utilising closed crankcase ventilation."

 

[pbm]

Quote:
"Abstract
Intake valve deposits in a direct injection internal combustion engine are reduced by lubricating the engine with a lubricant that is substantially free of ashless organic friction modifiers and whose base oil has a Noack volatility of less than 12 mass %."

Thanks Buster.....Wouldn't it be nice to know what oils meet that criteria. I'll probably just run regular syns. and keep the OCI to about 6 or 7K.
I don't think the GDI Duratech is particularly prone to IVD'S.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by buster
https://patents.google.com/patent/CA2578668C

"Abstract
Intake valve deposits in a direct injection internal combustion engine are reduced by lubricating the engine with a lubricant that is substantially free of ashless organic friction modifiers and whose base oil has a Noack volatility of less than 12 mass %."

"BACKGROUND OF THE INVENTION

Direct injection engines are those in which fuel is injected inside the cylinders of the engine, thereby enabling the amount of fuel burned and the timing of injection to be controlled precisely. A problem with such engines is that deposits tend to build up on the intake valves to unacceptable levels thereby interfering with the closing, motion and sealing of the valves. The efficiency of the engine is thus reduced and maximum power is limited. This is particularly evident in those engines utilising closed crankcase ventilation."



" substantially free of ashless organic friction modifiers "


HMMM...Does this contract Lubrizol of who released their reports a year earlier. I would think that they would say "substantially comprised of ashless organic friction modifiers"

Ya know...I'm not getting into this carousel discussion over a 15 yr old topic deadhorse of a topic. Complete time waster.

 

[buster]

^ There are many other posts on BITOG to obsess over.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by buster
Quote
The part about claiming low-SAPS reduces IVD over full-SAPS is flawed because they are comparing an inferior Euro III full-SAPS oil to a superior Euro IV low-SAPS oils. They are supposed to have a controlled experiment to make such a claim, in which they keep everything except SAPS constant.
Agree. Quite surprised they did that.
Proof?

Again, based upon what? What's this "inferior Euro 3"? Euro 4 oils are by definition lower SAPs no?

SonofJoe -- a retired oil blender from the UK -- blasted the Lubrizol study. Mike McCabe is the Lubrizol official who had made the presentation.

Originally Posted by SonofJoe
The blanket statement that high SAPS engine oils result in worse Inlet Valve Deposits on GDI engines is total and utter bollocks!!!! It may have been 11 years ago but even so, Mike McMabe should hang his head in shame for peddling such misleading and self-serving propaganda.

Okay, let's go back to 2006 when this presentation was issued. If you look at the maximum permitted Sulphated Ash levels for 'normal' ACEA oils, they appear very high ranging from 1.3% (for A1/B1) to 1.6% (for A3/B4). But these are MAXIMUM levels. There were no minimum ash levels and at the time nor were there any minimum TBN limits. The reality was that in 2006, the ash levels of these oils was no where near the maximum limits. At a rough guess, a typical European SL/CF/A3/B4/MB229.1/VW505 oil (that was sort of the typical market spec level) would have a TBN of 8-ish and an ash of 0.8-ish. In other words, ash-wise, these oils weren't a million miles from the ash specs of ACEA C2 & C3 low SAPS oils. Also, while Phosphorus wasn't explicitly limited for ACEA oils, most commercial oils had P levels of under 1000 ppm; so again, not a million miles from the 900 ppm max of most of the low SAPs grades.

Now let's look at A1/B1. A1/B1 was always something of a grudging nod by ACEA to what was happening in the US on fuel economy oils. Most of the big European OEMs didn't want it as they were still very much wedded to their 3.5 min HTHS limit, but people like Ford could see a place for 2.9 min HTHS oils in Europe. A1/B1 was US-like in other ways. It allowed oils with upto 15% Noack (vs 13% max for all other oils) so importantly it could be made from Group I/II oils. Secondly, unlike other ACEA oils, A1/B1 did not have to stay-in-grade on the KO30 shear test, meaning that it could use US-like high SSI VIIs. Thirdly, and critically, A1/B1 oils were allowed an easy ride on the Peugeot TU5 test.

There's one other relevant piece of the jigsaw to share. Whilst A1/B1 oils are notionally dual-use oils (ie for both gasoline & Diesel engines), the OEMs that plugged them did NOT recommend them for Diesel.

So now we get to this field trial that so convincingly 'demonstrated' that a Euro 3, OEM recommended, high SAPs oil gave far worse IVDs on a GDI engine than a Euro 4 low SAPs oil.

Now the presentation gives no details on what oils were compared but one might imagine a scenario where an AddCo, keen to capitalise on a new market opportunity, compares a high SAPs oil with a low SAPs oil. Obviously they want the trial to give the 'right' result that suits their commercial purposes. So what do they do? Might they compare an mineral-based, 5W30, nominally (but not really) high SAPs, A1/B1 oil (with its attendant high Noack) to a full synthetic (possibly PAO) low SAPs oil (with presumably a very low Noack). Given the mechanism by which valve deposits are formed, which do you think will demonstrate the better performance??? Well of course the low SAPs oil will so QED, high SAPs oil is bad m'kay?

Finally let's consider what Direct Gasoline Injection might have been used for this field trial. As I recall, there weren't that many around back then but one was about to be launched; the infamous Audi 2.0L TFSI engine. Yep. That one. The one that ate oil like it was going out of style. The one that suffered from obscene amounts of inlet valve deposits. The one that was subject to a class action lawsuit suit in the US. Do we still think it's right to blame high SAPs oil for causing IVD problems or might it possibly be that the engine itself was a dog??

Some folks really do need to stop treating every single thing they read on the internet as Gospel and mindlessly parroting messages that are simply not true.

 

[Jimmy_Russells]

So he makes the argument high SAPS oils don't create more IVD's but then in the first paragraph of his explanation why, goes on to state the high SAPS oils don't actually have as much ash in them as the spec allows.

That goes totally against his argument. His terminology is also incorrect calling a 2006 2.0T a TFSI engine. It was called the FSI engine, the TFSI appeared in 2008.5 in North America.

 

[DirectRejection]

It would be interesting to hear the thoughts from buster , Gokhan, et al in this vein re...
Amsoil ALM Signature Series 5W20.

--Lowest of NOACK at 5.8

--Healthy slug o' calcium

--POE

--High TBN

This is why I log in at BITOG !
Tremendous info.
Lively debate.

 

[TheIceStormof06]

Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
My evidence is anectodal but after using 502 oil for twelve years in two different VW's, and now using 504 in an Audi for over two, the difference in tailpipe soot and oil color over time is huge.


I concur. Very huge! Almost no tailpipe soot in my VR6 using 504.00 after 9.5k miles

 

[TheIceStormof06]

Originally Posted by Patman
I still sleep better at night knowing that the oil I'm using in my direct injected Corvette has an SA of only 0.6%, along with a low NOACK of 5.6%. Unfortunately when this supply runs out and I switch to the new version of ESP 5w30, it's higher on both of those values. I can't imagine that's going to be better for preventing intake valve deposits

So basically the 1L bottles better than the Quart and is VISOM vs. GTL?

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted by TheIceStormof06
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
My evidence is anectodal but after using 502 oil for twelve years in two different VW's, and now using 504 in an Audi for over two, the difference in tailpipe soot and oil color over time is huge.
I concur. Very huge! Almost no tailpipe soot in my VR6 using 504.00 after 9.5k miles

Originally Posted by SonofJoe
Do we still think it's right to blame high SAPs oil for causing IVD problems or might it possibly be that the engine itself was a dog??

 

[Kamele0N]

Originally Posted by TheIceStormof06
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
My evidence is anectodal but after using 502 oil for twelve years in two different VW's, and now using 504 in an Audi for over two, the difference in tailpipe soot and oil color over time is huge.


I concur. Very huge! Almost no tailpipe soot in my VR6 using 504.00 after 9.5k miles

Thats because VAG is using GPF filters....and they collect&burn soot like DPF ones....

In fact...all modern TGDi engines nowadays have to be equiped with them othervise they polute even more then diesel engine(s) with deleted DPF...

https://www.fuelsandlubes.com/fli-a...ection-engines-tgdi-little-known-secret/

https://www.transportenvironment.org/press/new-petrol-engines-cause-more-air-pollution-dirty-diesels