Does Redline kill trannies?

[Terry]

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The majors haven't felt the need to build their markets by tearing down the little guys............I'd rather stick to the facts.

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Me too !

If the companies that influence( bugger) the markets build a superior product ( hopefully without stealing technology) then thats what I recommend to my customers. Whether its a individual or a formulator ( large or small).

I don't see the small guys making excuses.

I do see the major players complain when they can't control the game.

The small guys complain when they can't get past the costs involved to get a solid product to test screening to even arrive at the "game", let alone retail markets.

 

[Mickey_M]

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Originally posted by Terry:
I don't see the small guys making excuses.

I do see the major players complain when they can't control the game.

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- on the excuses side of the story I read that one of the small guys' oils is not API service category rated because (a) the API is an evil cartel or words to that effect, (b) the API and the manufacturers of automobiles don't understand phosphorous and catalytic converters, (c) it's too expensive.

- on the major players complaining when they can't control the game I read .... nothing.

 

[Mickey_M]

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Originally posted by MolaKule:
The smaller firms often do use more exotic, more expensive ingredients than do the bugger firms. This is called innovation.

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I grabbed a couple of virgin oil analyses off the board and the prices for each motor oil off the Internet:

Mobil 1__________}Amsoil
Racing___________}Series 2000
0W-30___________}0W-30

Silicon___________}5______}5______}100.0%
Molybdenum______}78_____}0______}0.0%
Boron___________}178____}60_____}33.7%
Magnesium_______}13_____}723____}5561.5%
Phosphorus______}1399___}1050___}75.1%
Zinc____________}1536___}1150___}74.9%
Calcium__________}3024___}2300___}76.1%

Price___________}$6.86__}$8.35__}121.7%

For 121% of the price of the Mobil 1, you get about 3/4 of the anti-wear additives. Neither are API rated for a service category. Both are PAO based with at least one ester. The Mobil ester is proprietary.

Is the exotic expensive ingredient magnesium?

 

[Pablo]

Not all antiwear additives have elements that are detected in a quick elemental analyses.

 

[Mickey_M]

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Originally posted by Pablo:
Not all antiwear additives have elements that are detected in a quick elemental analyses.

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For example, the proprietary ester in the Mobil 1.

It should show up in a wear test, then.

 

[MolaKule]

MICKEY-M,

You are comparing a racing-branded oil to a passenger car motor oil?

Both use esters, even if you consider Mobil's TME polyolester a proprietary ester.

Looking at the analysis, what do you see Amsoil and Mobil trading off in terms of elemental-type additives and their associated functionalities?

Question: If Mobil's AN's are incorporated into their future formulations to replace the esters (assuming the AN's work out), will mobil lower their prices and will the performance of mobil's synthetic products match the ester formulation?

 

[Steve S]

$6.86 to$8.35 is the comparison Mola. I'm not knocking Amsoil But Amsoil is nothing special just overpriced.

 

[tdi-rick]

This is getting waaaaay off topic here, and the mods can delete it if they think it inappropriate, but the people that can answer this question are active on this thread.

Will a VOA on some 9 year old NEO 0w-5 show anything worthwhile, or will it have degraded substantially by now. ??
It has darkened noticeably from new, yet has always been kept in a dark corner of the shed.


Rick.

 

[Mickey_M]

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Originally posted by MolaKule:
You are comparing a racing-branded oil to a passenger car motor oil?....

Question: If Mobil's AN's are incorporated into their future formulations to replace the esters (assuming the AN's work out), will mobil lower their prices and will the performance of mobil's synthetic products match the ester formulation?

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I picked the top-line Amsoil 0w30 PAO-based not API service category rated street oil. According to Amsoil it's "Race-proven technology designed for passenger car performance".

The comparable Mobil 1 is the Racing Oil, "Now the same Mobil 1 technology made available to NASCAR® drivers is also available to you".

If its high levels of additives are of concern, mix it 50/50 with the Mobil 1 SL service category 0W-30, dropping the price considerably in the comparison and basically matching the Amsoil's additive levels.

I don't know how the alkylated napthalene would work with the IV+ polyalphaolefin which Exxon Mobil will be bringing into the market in mid-2005 when the Beaumont plant comes on-line.

I'm sure that Exxon Mobil is testing potential future products in its test fleet and in field tests.

 

[mikep]

Average Joe consumer chimming in here....I came to this thread because of the title and the fact that I'm just about to drain and fill my car's auto trans with new Redline D4. The thread title caught my attention instantly!

However, it is the ongoing discussion (a very civilized one) that has me completely glued to the thread! This is EXCELLENT stuff here guys. I raise my

to the gang for keeping it civil while having a difference of opinion.

It doesn't get much better than this!

 

[Mickey_M]

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Originally posted by MolaKule:
Thanks, but that wasn't my point and I had no concerns about Mobil 1 R's add levels.

I was seeking your comments reagrding additive tradeoff's, specifically, examining the levels of magnesium and MoDTC.

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I'm no chemist, I’m just an old wrench turner.

However, from what little I know I'd say that both
motor oils in most street engines would never exhaust their anti-wear additives, that Mobil's molybdenum is a better choice than Amsoil's magnesium for a spark ignition engine, and that other than some concerns about catalytic converter longevity with the Mobil 1 and spark plug fouling with the Amsoil, I'd expect the two motor oils to be a close match in terms of engine
wear over the long haul.

The lower viscosity formula would probably yield
slightly higher power and fuel economy, and based on experience I'd bet that would be the Mobil 1.

In terms of longevity, if you were going to use them for extended drain periods, Mobil's polyolester is a very effective complement to the PAO base stock, and I'd expect Mobil 1 to have the edge.

But putting them in crankcases and running them in
comparable conditions would provide meaningful
comparisons.

 

[Terry]

Mickey_M, from one old wrench turner to another thanks for the exchange of opinion and thought !

You stated above that;

quote:

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that Mobil's molybdenum is a better choice than Amsoil's magnesium

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What prompted ( approximately 2 years ago) Andy Jackson to allow Moly used in "SuperSyn" M1 when the only time I saw it used by Mobil was in proprietary racing applications?

As a independent analyst I measured the move akin to A.J.Amatuzio blinking when he introduced a GRP III motor oil to Amsoils line up.

Any insight from your perspective is appreciated.

 

[Mickey_M]

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Originally posted by Terry:
What prompted ( approximately 2 years ago) Andy Jackson to allow Moly used in "SuperSyn" M1 when the only time I saw it used by Mobil was in proprietary racing applications?

As a independent analyst I measured the move akin to A.J.Amatuzio blinking when he introduced a GRP III motor oil to Amsoils line up.

Any insight from your perspective is appreciated.

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That's the innovation the big oil companies are so well known for.

 

[MolaKule]

Here is what I am getting at because I thought you wanted to engage in additives analysis and formulations:

The moly dialkyl dithiocarbamate in Mobil 1R is a secomdary friction modifier. The esters especially, and the PAO's are PRIMARY friction modifiers. The moly is also used as a secondary antioxidant.

The magnesium alkyl sulfonate in Amsoil is being used as a secodary friction modifier. The esters and PAO's are being used as primary friction modifiers. The magnesium sulfonate is also being used as an overbased detergent. This provides high tbn and tbn retention for extended drains.

Both use relatively high levels of ZDDP as PRIMARY valve-train anti-wear additives and as antioxidants.

Both use high levels of overbased calcium alkyaryl sulfonates as detergents, as SECONDARY wear additives, and as rust inhibitors.

Now in order to provide extended drain tbn's to fight acids, Mobil increases the calcium, while Amsoil increases the magnesium. A simple difference in additive philosophy, and each avoids formulation infringements on the other.

Amsoil is using an expensive secondary antioxidant, a complex amine, which I believe (IMHO) is showing up in the price differences, because of the slightly lower levels of ZDDP and no moly. Again, a simple difference in additive philosophy(s).

Neither is API rated, but should do well in most engines.

 

[Terry]

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That's the innovation the big oil companies are so well known for.

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I see. Hmmm. Let me get this straight.... Following say, Schaeffers or even Redline in using Moly as a additive to compensate for the lack of adds (EP regime and oxidation issues) in M1 SuperSyn ? Is innovation ? I call it retail marketing on the cheap.

Tri Syn was a great oil in theory but was too expensive when it was realized that more of those trick syn esters would be needed to make it perform as well as say Schaeffers 7000 Blend( at the time a grp1/PAO blend).

Just a independent observation derived from thousands of automotive oil analysis results in the real world.

 

[MolaKule]

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If its high levels of additives are of concern, mix it 50/50 with the Mobil 1 SL service category 0W-30, dropping the price considerably in the comparison and basically matching the Amsoil's additive levels.

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Thanks, but that wasn't my point and I had no concerns about Mobil 1 R's add levels.

I was seeking your comments reagrding additive tradeoff's, specifically, examining the levels of magnesium and MoDTC.

[ September 28, 2004, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]

 

[MolaKule]

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Will a VOA on some 9 year old NEO 0w-5 show anything worthwhile, or will it have degraded substantially by now. ??
It has darkened noticeably from new, yet has always been kept in a dark corner of the shed.

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If the bottle was capped, it should be ok. 10 years is about the max shelf life for a modern motor oil. We do have at least one UOA on NEO and in ten years they most likely have had formulation changes, so I don't think I would throw money into a 10 year-old old oil for a VOA.

Some additives may be photosensitive or slightly sensitive to high temperatures, so oils may darken over time.

[ September 28, 2004, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]

 

[rugerman1]

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Some additives may be photosensitive

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Amish oils?

 

[Mickey_M]

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Originally posted by MolaKule:
Now in order to provide extended drain tbn's to fight acids, Mobil increases the calcium, while Amsoil increases the magnesium. A simple difference in additive philosophy, and each avoids formulation infringements on the other.

Amsoil is using an expensive secondary antioxidant, a complex amine, which I believe (IMHO) is showing up in the price differences, because of the slightly lower levels of ZDDP and no moly.

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The ester used in the Mobil 1 also acts as an anti-oxidant.

The calcium presents fewer problems for spark plugs than the magnesium. That's one of the reasons Delvac 1 looks more like the Amsoil.

Another reason for the price difference is that the profit of the manufacturers of the base stock, blend stocks, and additives is added to the profits of A.J. Amatuzio.

You get hit twice when you buy Amsoil.

 

[Mickey_M]

quote:

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Originally posted by Terry:

Tri Syn was a great oil in theory but was too expensive when it was realized that more of those trick syn esters would be needed to make it perform as well as say Schaeffers 7000 Blend( at the time a grp1/PAO blend).

Just a independent observation derived from thousands of automotive oil analysis results in the real world.

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I believe that Mobil found that it could achieve the same or better results for less money than the Tri Syn.

And I believe there are other formulations in the wings that will improve on the current ones.