Does idle stop end oil lubrication, Damage engine?

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
I'd bet you my left one...

You've already wagered that on a previous bet and lost.
Do you really want to bet your right one?
Perhaps another body part instead?

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
What? the middle bit????????????

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: thrace
Originally Posted By: raytseng
The Honda designers made the feature, it's going to work fine without damage.
It's not some jury-rigged backyard thing you're using.
A statement like that is not evidence or proof of anything. Honda did design their own automatic transmissions also. My transmission and many others did not work fine without damage as long as the average transmission. Mine failed young. With more maintenance than the owners manual says.


I hear you, these recent threads come to mind.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3213814/1/New_Honda_Pilot:_3.5_VCM:_What

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/high-oil-consumption-vcm-engines.208226/

Nobody is perfect. But with any new technology or first time implementation of it, there's always growing pains. Then we have the consumer testing phase that often exposes problems the engineers missed.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Shannow
I'd bet you my left one...

You've already wagered that on a previous bet and lost.


102 oil filter ?

Fair call..I learned something in that thread.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Shannow
I'd bet you my left one...

You've already wagered that on a previous bet and lost.


102 oil filter ?

Fair call..I learned something in that thread.

Yeah, but I'm just teasing, and I thought you were right as well.
Fortunately I'm not a betting man, otherwise I would have been neutered years ago.

 

[raytseng]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: thrace
Originally Posted By: raytseng
The Honda designers made the feature, it's going to work fine without damage.
It's not some jury-rigged backyard thing you're using.
A statement like that is not evidence or proof of anything. Honda did design their own automatic transmissions also. My transmission and many others did not work fine without damage as long as the average transmission. Mine failed young. With more maintenance than the owners manual says.


I hear you, these recent threads come to mind.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3213814/1/New_Honda_Pilot:_3.5_VCM:_What

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/high-oil-consumption-vcm-engines.208226/

Nobody is perfect. But with any new technology or first time implementation of it, there's always growing pains. Then we have the consumer testing phase that often exposes problems the engineers missed.

fair enough, point taken

 

[Zaedock]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Zaedock
I would be hard pressed to see any data that indicates start/stop on a warmed up engine/lubricant causes additional damage you can measure in the service life of the vehicle.



Are you referring to service life of a normal vehicle w/o start stop technology or a vehicle with it? A vehicle with it that might start thousands and thousands more times over its life. I'd be willing to bet it takes its toll over the life of the vehicle. Especially if you buy into the theory that when oil is changed and fresh new oil is added more wear occurs until the anti-wear additives begin to work their magic as the oil ages a bit.

I'd disable it as soon as I took it home from the dealer.


Well, having rebuilt, raced, and beaten many different types of engines, I would take the bet that the wear would be less than you think. Although most of us agree that most wear occurs at cold startup, these engines are already at temp, as is the lubricant. FWIW, I dabbled with the Delo SAE30 many of us scored on back in '05 and was able to achieve single digit wear numbers in an off road season with a Jeep design known to shed iron. That's with hundreds of starts in a typical wheeling season and a few snow runs.

The starter on the other hand may get the snot beat out of it.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Zaedock
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Zaedock
I would be hard pressed to see any data that indicates start/stop on a warmed up engine/lubricant causes additional damage you can measure in the service life of the vehicle.



Are you referring to service life of a normal vehicle w/o start stop technology or a vehicle with it? A vehicle with it that might start thousands and thousands more times over its life. I'd be willing to bet it takes its toll over the life of the vehicle. Especially if you buy into the theory that when oil is changed and fresh new oil is added more wear occurs until the anti-wear additives begin to work their magic as the oil ages a bit.

I'd disable it as soon as I took it home from the dealer.


Well, having rebuilt, raced, and beaten many different types of engines, I would take the bet that the wear would be less than you think. Although most of us agree that most wear occurs at cold startup, these engines are already at temp, as is the lubricant. FWIW, I dabbled with the Delo SAE30 many of us scored on back in '05 and was able to achieve single digit wear numbers in an off road season with a Jeep design known to shed iron. That's with hundreds of starts in a typical wheeling season and a few snow runs.

The starter on the other hand may get the snot beat out of it.



The battery, starter, and over the years the engine. Imagine the engine turning off every single time you stop for a light, then restarting? Soccer mom use, stop and go traffic, like I experience living about 25 miles from NYC. Imagine the NYC commuter, taking an 90 minutes [on a good day] to drive 25 miles, to and from work 5 days a week. Constant stop and go on the LIE. How many times do you think the engine will start and shut down in a 100,000 miles of that kind of use? I'd be willing to bet the engine that stays on will fare better. It will burn a bit more gas, that's something that doesn't bother me though.

We'll know soon enough cars equipped with it are out and about, and people are disabling the technology so its not loved that's for sure.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Google "hydrodynamic lubrication", and you will see that to have an oil film (wedge), you must have relative motion between the parts...the slower the motion, the thinner the wedge...no motion, no wedge.

But, if one uses a very thin oil, that is, a very LIGHT oil, won't it counteract the effects of gravity and maintain this wedge indefinitely? Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: raytseng
The Honda designers made the feature, it's going to work fine without damage.
It's not some jury-rigged backyard thing you're using.


You mean like Honda's VCM?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: raytseng
The Honda designers made the feature, it's going to work fine without damage.
It's not some jury-rigged backyard thing you're using.


You mean like Honda's VCM?

LOL I posted two recent links to the VCM problem. I couldn't find the great write up you did cleaning the mess up in the Honda Odyssey engine a year or so ago. Maybe this is a new design team?

 

[Zaedock]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
We'll know soon enough cars equipped with it are out and about, and people are disabling the technology so its not loved that's for sure.



We will indeed. Personally, I don't like extra "features" and the start/stop is just another gimmick to save fuel. The same folks who will buy the car will end up blowing past you on the highway anyway (probably with underinflated tires!).

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Zaedock
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
We'll know soon enough cars equipped with it are out and about, and people are disabling the technology so its not loved that's for sure.



We will indeed. Personally, I don't like extra "features" and the start/stop is just another gimmick to save fuel. The same folks who will buy the car will end up blowing past you on the highway anyway (probably with underinflated tires!).

I look at it as one more thing to have a problem with and eventually cause other problems.

 

[Finz]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I look at it as one more thing to have a problem with and eventually cause other problems.



+1...

I'm not adverse to change at all but I'm a huge fan of KISS - keep it simple stupid. What I don't like is being a Guinea pig or beta tester after spending thousands of dollars.

I don't know enough (frankly anything) about this start/stop stuff and it might be the greatest thing since sliced bread but a necessity?

I would love to see 2 drivers (coworkers) with the exact same car commuting the same time & route. One with start/stop disabled. The other active.

After a year, compare MPG... I wonder what aggregate fuel costs would be?

Granted, emissions play a role but from a pure fuel cost perspective, it would be interesting to see just how much of an impact this technology would make.

Want to make a big impact? Have the above coworkers travel together... Nahhhhh...

 

[cb450sc]

I can attest to the Honda transmission problems and the autostop. I think Honda should have owned up to their automatic transmission problems and recalled most of what they made. Especially the 2001 to 2004 Civic's Automatic.
I do however think that the autostop feature should be standard on every car if it was as good as my 2003 Civic Hybrid. Think of the fuel this one feature can save. I remember that it took a couple of weeks to get use to it but after that it was great. I sold that car 3 years ago because of the CVT transmission and high cost of replacement battery. I did have 280000 km on it and it did not use a drop of oil.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Finz
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I look at it as one more thing to have a problem with and eventually cause other problems.



+1...

I'm not adverse to change at all but I'm a huge fan of KISS - keep it simple stupid. What I don't like is being a Guinea pig or beta tester after spending thousands of dollars.

I don't know enough (frankly anything) about this start/stop stuff and it might be the greatest thing since sliced bread but a necessity?

I would love to see 2 drivers (coworkers) with the exact same car commuting the same time & route. One with start/stop disabled. The other active.

After a year, compare MPG... I wonder what aggregate fuel costs would be?

Granted, emissions play a role but from a pure fuel cost perspective, it would be interesting to see just how much of an impact this technology would make.

Want to make a big impact? Have the above coworkers travel together... Nahhhhh...


Interesting. Just for the record I'm not referring to Hybrid cars, I'm referring to gas burners with start stop technology.

I'd like to see the two cars in your example fuel savings after 100,000 miles. Then the cost of batteries and starters, or other repairs associated with the technology if any, and finally engine tear down comparisons. It sure would be interesting and might shed some light on just how good or bad the technology is. It could be the greatest thing since sliced bread, or a monumental flop. Lets not forget the additional cost the technology added to the price of the car, we need to factor that into our savings, if any.

 

[jrustles]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
I'd bet you my left one that they haven't...and it wouldn't make a scrap of difference...flow <> lubrication.


This.

Come on, on a mechanical oil pump, when the engine is spinning the pump is spinning- period. No spinny, no weary. As mentioned before, for stop-start operations the oil system is fully primed (designing it to stay primed is sound engineering) and an oil film and additives are on site and ready to go.

People are taking the "99% of wear occurs on startup" a little too much. I doubt that's ever been true.

 

[CATERHAM]

The "99% of wear occurring on a cold start-up AND during warm-up" has validity.
But the Stop/Start feature doesn't kick-in until the engine is up to normal operating temp's and the engine's oil system is of course fully primed. Under such conditions I don't see how engine wear can be increased.

 

[blackman777]

Slick 50 used to make that claim, and the FTC forced them to stop because it wasn't true.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
Slick 50 used to make that claim, and the FTC forced them to stop because it wasn't true.


Please explain exactly what Slick 50s claim WAS, which bit was untrue, and what they were asked to withdraw.