Does dark matter actually exist?

[Yah-Tah-Hey]

Originally Posted By: Triple_Se7en
Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
Some one felt the need to bash religion as a rejection of science. Since the door was opened, it might surprise many that the Vatican is quite aligned with science and especially Astronomy, as they have an observatory and encourage scientific discussion.



Some felt the need to bash Science as a rejection of Religion.
Also, Many top Scientists are aligned with the Vatican's view on things. You don't need to be an Einstein to figure out the Big Bang and all the energy behind it came from....... um....... "You know Who".
Why would anyone turn to the Vatican, religion and/ or theologians for an explanation of anything? They have made their proclamations down through the centuries, been totally routed by scientific discovery, and when the theologians can no longer explain all the mumbo jumbo they expect the laity to believe without question, when they can no longer logically explain their edicts, they turn to mysteries and miracles.Just shut up you little sinner, it's a mystery.It's a mystery to me how anyone can sit in a pew and listen to that claptrap.

 

[KrisZ]

Hmm, so there is something out there that we cannot touch, see, smell or measure by any scientific methods we have, yet it is believed to "hold" everything together. Are we sure we are talking science here?

 

[LoneRanger]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Hmm, so there is something out there that we cannot touch, see, smell or measure by any scientific methods we have, yet it is believed to "hold" everything together. Are we sure we are talking science here?


Touché !!

 

[Yah-Tah-Hey]

We have learned a great deal about our world since mankind broke free of the yoke of a repressive church. The Vatican condemned even electricity in the 19th century, Pius 10th labelling the advance of knowledge "Modernism." That's saint Pious the 10th.In the decades and centuries to come, we will learn a great deal more about the universe and our place in it. If mankind had continued along the miracles, mysteries and marvels ignorance , would would still be stuck in the 10th century.

 

[Yah-Tah-Hey]

Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Hmm, so there is something out there that we cannot touch, see, smell or measure by any scientific methods we have, yet it is believed to "hold" everything together. Are we sure we are talking science here?


Touché !!

Some of us are talking science, others are talking pseudo science. Why do we need a creator to explain existence? It would be just as correct to say that what we call the universe has existed forever in one form or another.Maybe existence is the default. And don't drag first cause into the discussion.

 

[LoneRanger]

Fair enough, please enumerate which posters are talking pseudo science and which are talking science. Please also distinguish what in the content of posts from those talking only pseudo science, comprises pseudo science as opposed to actual science.

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Hmm, so there is something out there that we cannot touch, see, smell or measure by any scientific methods we have, yet it is believed to "hold" everything together. Are we sure we are talking science here?


Stop twisting things around.

We impute the presence of dark matter through precise measurement of observable phenomena. That's how science works.

Faith is a separate matter.

 

[chiefsfan1]

Well, something holds it all together. If one looks at the CERN entrance one see's the Hindu god statue Shiva. The god of destruction.

Kind of creepy...

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Hmm, so there is something out there that we cannot touch, see, smell or measure by any scientific methods we have, yet it is believed to "hold" everything together. Are we sure we are talking science here?

As Astro pointed out, it is measurable....just as gravity is measurable. The nature of it is really not totally understand. BTW the exact nature of gravity is unknown. Einstein's General Theory determined how to calculate its effects but not really what exactly it is.

 

[KrisZ]

Dark matter is measurable? That's news to me. I thought that it was the measurements of things we can measure, like rotational speed of galaxies, did not makes sense and it led to the concept of dark matter.

Inventing things to make the existing concepts work smacks of R.

 

[turtlevette]

Dark matter/energy is needed to explain the behavior of the universe

Stephen Hawking has said the same thing with regard to a creator

A creator is required if we can't explain the initial conditions of the big bang. Infinite density and zero volume at the same instant defies logic

 

[Yah-Tah-Hey]

Well now. No one mentioned oil or oil filters. Mighty fine discussion. I grew up in New Mexico and first visited Los Alamos in 1947. It was a very primitive place and I remember my aunt and uncle's house was heated with fuel oil and very cold in December of 47. The whole place was like the north pole.And a final question. Should a person who graduated from high school in Albuquerque,NM in 1954 have been able to at least explain fission and fusion and the difference? Ah yes, The Marion Year class.

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: Cujet
My guess is that "invisible" dark matter does not exist. If 23% of the universe is invisible dark matter, we should be able to interact with it, via gravity on a local basis. It's "out there" and not here? Really?

Instead, I'd guess that dead stars, planets and other mass exist in abundance. The fact that we can't see it is due to lack of illumination.


We DO interact with it. The existence is inferred from gravitational effects (lensing, galactic rotation) that cannot be accounted for by the visible (baryonic) matter. This was first noticed over 90 years ago - gravity behaved in a way that wasn't explainable by what was observed. Therefore, there must be more mass than what we could see...mass that was "dark". By definition, it's not visible.

But the precise nature of it is still a matter of debate and research.


My point was that the additional mass of dark matter is not part of the earth or even our solar system. Leading to the conclusion that dark matter is spread throughout the universe, but not local to us.

Our understanding of gravity is, at best, in it's infancy. Also, there are alternative views on "lost matter". The latest discovery is that we can now observe much of it nearby our galaxy.

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Dark matter is measurable? That's news to me. I thought that it was the measurements of things we can measure, like rotational speed of galaxies, did not makes sense and it led to the concept of dark matter.

Inventing things to make the existing concepts work smacks of R.


Dark matter is of course not measurable.
The mass required to make our existing models of the mechanics work is calculable, though.
It's a plug number, as my wife had it.

 

[Al]

Dark matter is 27%, Dark Energy is 68%, and 5% is conventional matter and energy.

 

[fdcg27]

...and those are the plug numbers required to make the books come out, nothing more.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Dark matter is measurable? That's news to me. I thought that it was the measurements of things we can measure, like rotational speed of galaxies, did not makes sense and it led to the concept of dark matter.

Inventing things to make the existing concepts work smacks of R.


Dark matter is of course not measurable.
The mass required to make our existing models of the mechanics work is calculable, though.
It's a plug number, as my wife had it.


It's a measurement of something missing. Which means it can be measured, but it's kinda like measuring a vacuum, or dealing with imaginary numbers. Not directly measurable but "something" that be measured.

 

[fdcg27]

This thread brings to mind an old joke about economists.
Equipped with only a hammer, the economist says "First, let's assume a nail."
Assuming the existence of matter and energy merely because that's what's required to make an existing model work may point to problems with our model of celestial mechanics.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
This thread brings to mind an old joke about economists.
Equipped with only a hammer, the economist says "First, let's assume a nail."
Assuming the existence of matter and energy merely because that's what's required to make an existing model work may point to problems with our model of celestial mechanics.


Precisely my point. It is based on a belief or faith, something that is being laughed at in this very thread.

 

[Yah-Tah-Hey]

Originally Posted By: Triple_Se7en
Originally Posted By: Nick1994
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
It's a bunch of hokus pokus [censored]. Don't buy into it.
Yeah, and the world is 6,000 years old right?

Whoever said the world is 6K years-old? Where did you get that from?
I believe some Baptist Churches believe the world is only about 6000 years old based on a clerice named Ussher counting the "begats" in the Bible. As I recall, they also know the month and the exact date. I can't remember the day but the month was October.