do you really need an oil filter

[Ed_T]

The VW air-cooled likely had immense clearances (tolerance?) and could probably pass boulders.

Who would want something clogging their modern-day piston skirt squirters?

 

[ZZman]

I would agree with that.

Tolerances are much tighter now, engine also produce more horsepower and heat now.

 

[Propflux01]

Originally Posted By: Ed_T
The VW air-cooled likely had immense clearances (tolerance?) and could probably pass boulders.

Who would want something clogging their modern-day piston skirt squirters?


Those tolerances were no more "immense" than any other engine.

 

[Lazy JW]

I have had no difficulty driving my pre-doghouse Bugs well over 100,000 miles sans oil filter. Pretty sure that wouldn't happen if the (stock oil-bath) air cleaner didn't function properly. My next Bug rebuild will get a bypass filter of some type, probably toilet paper.
Joe

 

[toolboy62]

Just to add to this discussion... it wasn't just VW's; many cars back in the day had no full flow filter. Studebaker did not until they redesigned their blocks for the 1963 model year... prior to that they used Fram F4 bypass filters... as an *option.*

Of course, if you use good oil and change it every 3K miles, an engine will probably last through its design life and then some... but if you really want to "drive it forever" I would consider a filter of some sort to be mandatory.

nate

(just bought two more CM filters off fleaBay last night... would have got one for the Porsche as well but I can't find a 20mm one for less than list price)

 

[StevieC]

So we own two tractors... Both have the same type of B&S engine, same H.P. etc... Just about 10 years in age difference. One comes equipped with a filter and one doesn't... So I guess filters are needed.

They both run great, have about the same amount of time on them and neither burns, or leaks oil...

 

[Spector]

Sorry guys, I disagree, they are pretty much useless appendages on todays engines with todays oils. They capture basically nothing in a well operating/maintained engine. The air filter is the king in terms of what is needed for filtration.

I have only gone two 12,000 miles tests with no filter change and one at the half way point and it made no difference in the UOA. cutting them open revealed nothing as well.

NO ONE has ever done a test to see how long todays engines will go without an oil filter but I would bet at least 200,000 miles. Basically we use them because we have have to and because we have this belief (like the 3000 mile OCI) that this is what worked in the past and we should continue doing it. A safety net to let us sleep at night!

is it the difference (filter vs no filter) between 200,000 miles and 300,000 miles (in which case who cares 99% of the time) or is it the difference between 100,000 miles and 200,000 miles.

NO One knows! So we use it!

 

[ZZman]

That is probably true Spector but you are talking to people that like cars and like maintaining them. What about the people that don't change their air filters regularly, or their oil etc.... The filter gives added protection.

The difference may not be in length of use as much as helping the engine run at its peak performance.

Much like running a spark plug 50,000 miles or 100,000 miles.
It might still run to 100,000 miles without failure but not be as efficient.

 

[Chris142]

I think the main reason for an oil filter is to stop contaminants that enter from when Iffy Lube leaves the oil fill cap off or uses a dirty funnel.

If there is enough metal floating around in the oil you have a major problem and the engine needs to be rebuilt anyway.

 

[glenncof]

Originally Posted By: widman
If you have ever cut open a filter to see what is in there you would never even entertain the thought of running without one.


Yes I have and No I would not.

I would consider extending the use of a filter though.

A well used filter looks like it's covered in tar. On a gas engine I suspect it's mostly oxidation of the oil. Diesel will add soot I believe. I get almost no metal on magnetic drain plugs.

I suspect synth oil to be more stable and therefore create less by-products. This would help filter life I suspect.

I think it is a really good idea to cut open used filters to evaluate life expectancy. I did.
(See my Tale of Three filters post for pix.)

 

[Kruse]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
So we own two tractors... Both have the same type of B&S engine, same H.P. etc... Just about 10 years in age difference. One comes equipped with a filter and one doesn't... So I guess filters are needed.


IMO, oil filters were put on those engines to sell engines and to make money selling oil filters. It is my belief that a B&S engine will probably last about the same with or without an oil filter, provided that you change oil according to what the manufacturer recommends.
Most of those small engines just filter the oil and send it back to the sump. These engines are not really full flow, just a bypass like early car engines.

 

[Steve S]

Yes it prolongs the life of the engine and oil . Not opinion but fact.

 

[StevieC]

Maybe that's why Toyota has shrunk the filters so drastically on their model of cars.. I also forgot to mention that I have an old 4 HP B&S engine on my dads lawn mower which is 27 years old and it was used at least Once per week for 4 months per year about 2 hours at a time at our old house and it still starts and runs perfectly. Puffs a bit of blue smoke when you first start it up, but it is 27 years old and probably only had about 5/6 oil changes during those years...

 

[jldcol]

High spector, op here again. Glad to post a subject that has caused a fair amount of discussion. Seems you read my mind, after breakin that oil filter is catching little if anything. Air filter is much more crucial than oil filter. Oil filters seem almost a designed in weakness. They can rupture and or just leak quickly dumping oil, and quickly killing engines.I would less adverse them provided they were much better build, particullary the gasket material/design. I submit they are changed to often anyway reducing the overall filtration. A used filter filters better than a new one and should be used as long as flow is adequate. Flow will go down as filtration improves, another of those trade off dilemas. Off road racers especially vets use only used air filters least engines quickly grunge up.

 

[ZZman]

Thats funny, in over 32 yrs of driving and owning different cars I have never had a filter rupture or seriously leak. I don't think I would call it a weakness. Those failures would be extremely rare.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Yes, oil filter is needed but you may not needed to change oil filter every time you change oil, specially for Honda except few models such as S2000.

 

[ChiTDI]

Originally Posted By: XS650
Originally Posted By: ChiTDI
VW originally thought that in their air cooled jobs. History doesn't seem to support that posture. All the rebuild California type sand and street buggies pride themselves in oil filtration as well as cooling, so I think the filter has a valid place.


On the original air cooled VWs the #3 exhaust valve went at about 80,000 miles so lack of filtration wasn't the limitation on engine life

#3 exhaust valve was a problem because the in the cooling shroud oil cooler was over #3 cylinder and it restricted air flow and preheated the air for #3.



Agree, but when you split the case and saw all those metal shavings in the oil wouldn't an oil filter have been nice?

They went to a 12 volt system in '67, and I think it was '68 or '69 that they redesigned the air flow for the oil cooler.
80k was about right, unless you knew enough to gap the exhaust valve on #3 at 0.006" rather than the spec of 0.004". Sometimes you got an extra 20k.
The 150k mi people were on later engines as you well know. Valve adjustment and head torque wasn't done by the average owner.

 

[Drew2000]

Changing out a $5 filter every 5-8k miles on a $20-30k+ vehicle seems like a no-brainer in the overall cost of operation, even if the engine -could- last a long time without one.

 

[Steve S]

Originally Posted By: Spector
Sorry guys, I disagree, they are pretty much useless appendages on todays engines with todays oils. They capture basically nothing in a well operating/maintained engine. The air filter is the king in terms of what is needed for filtration.

I have only gone two 12,000 miles tests with no filter change and one at the half way point and it made no difference in the UOA. cutting them open revealed nothing as well.

NO ONE has ever done a test to see how long todays engines will go without an oil filter but I would bet at least 200,000 miles. Basically we use them because we have have to and because we have this belief (like the 3000 mile OCI) that this is what worked in the past and we should continue doing it. A safety net to let us sleep at night!

is it the difference (filter vs no filter) between 200,000 miles and 300,000 miles (in which case who cares 99% of the time) or is it the difference between 100,000 miles and 200,000 miles.

NO One knows! So we use it!
If filters weren't necessary would you think the auto manufactures would install them?

 

[Steve S]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
Maybe that's why Toyota has shrunk the filters so drastically on their model of cars.. I also forgot to mention that I have an old 4 HP B&S engine on my dads lawn mower which is 27 years old and it was used at least Once per week for 4 months per year about 2 hours at a time at our old house and it still starts and runs perfectly. Puffs a bit of blue smoke when you first start it up, but it is 27 years old and probably only had about 5/6 oil changes during those years...

Once lead was removed from the gas the oil did not need to be as big. The removal of lead was a good thing for engine life.