Do stock market gains really help avg Americans?

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I think the op is set on his views and that is sad.

I was a middle class worker who believed in saving 10% right off the top and I started in my twenties. Time and dedication helped me to build a very nice nest egg for retirement.

If one expects everything to be handed to them then they are at the mercy of those doing the handling. Control your own destiny.
 
Originally Posted By: mbacfp
Unfortunately, traditional investment advice/methodology is centered around buy and hold...which is the worst thing you can do in our boom and bust market cycles IMHO.


The only problem with getting out is that even if you get out at the right time, the question is when do you get back in? Those that were able to call it and get out, weren't able to call it and get back in. Most of the time the market just goes sideways, but there's a few days when it really takes off and if you miss that, you miss the upside. It's why I have a good chunk in the S&P 500, I think the stat was that 75% of actively managed mutual funds can't beat it. But I've still got a few other funds and sometimes you're happy when they beat it, and mad when they don't.

Still in it, might stick my IRA money in now.
 
Originally Posted By: ZZman
It is reported that the top 10% of Americans own over 80% of stocks. This includes money Americans have in pension and 401k funds.


If Norway's sovereign fund can hold 1.5% of the entire world's stock market, do you really think the rest of the old money, dictator money, oil money, drug cartel money, are going to hold less?

The world is not fair no matter how you look at it. There'll always be rich and poor. I personally look at housing price and vehicle sales as the better indicator of how the economy is doing. The lower end of the food chain is always going to suffer no matter the top believe in "trickle down" (getting shafted) or "social justice" (recession).
 
You might have to define your particular definition of the average American. Some will paint this question as a one percenter, class struggle argument and some will go by the statistically average American.

Using the definitions of the average American of 1929 and the extended aftermath of the Depression would answer the question differently than the average market holdings of the statistically average American of 2008.

In 1929 ( and an extended period after ), the statistically average American was more helped by being able to keep his job than the stock market, whereas the downturn of 2008 was likely to effect the market holdings of these individuals in a different way if ( while staying fully invested ) they basically regained their losses in two years. In either case, you can't help but feel that time in the market, amounts in the market, and rolling 5 year periods will give you different results. The majority of which will have the "average" American benefiting handsomely from stock market gains.

That might be too clinical a way of looking at it in reference to the question, but the fact remains that it can depend. A 60 year old man just above the poverty line still investing 4% of his salary every month since age 25 vs. someone who inherited 400K in mutual funds in 2007 ( with no other investments ) and lost 60% of it in 2008 and left the market...two years before retirement .

Not having 3-4% interest rates could potentially push the average retired couple into riskier investments than their profile warrants and bad timing will generate something from which it could take much longer to recover. My dad retired at the end of 1986, was invested conservatively, and it still took him almost 5 years to recover from Oct. '87. Below average and above average ( statistical persons, amounts and intelligence ) will yield different results over time.
 
Originally Posted By: mbacfp
Unfortunately, traditional investment advice/methodology is centered around buy and hold...which is the worst thing you can do in our boom and bust market cycles IMHO.


It takes excess capital to time the market. If no one is jumping off buildings because of over leverage, it is not a financial collapse. When that happens, it is hard to suddenly have money to "invest".

I remember my friend trying to buy a home in 2009 when everything was cheap, he couldn't finance a loan he wanted because nobody wanted to lend as much money as he wanted to borrow. The discount is there for a reason. As soon as credit ease everyone bid the price up.

So, would you rather leave a pile of money around to time the market? or would you buy constantly and forget about it? How many people are good at the 1st and how many people are good at the 2nd? Personally I am a poor market timer, so I decided to pick a couple US fund and a couple International fund, and dollar cost average them.
 
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Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: mbacfp
Unfortunately, traditional investment advice/methodology is centered around buy and hold...which is the worst thing you can do in our boom and bust market cycles IMHO.


It takes excess capital to time the market. If no one is jumping off buildings because of over leverage, it is not a financial collapse. When that happens, it is hard to suddenly have money to "invest".

I remember my friend trying to buy a home in 2009 when everything was cheap, he couldn't finance a loan he wanted because nobody wanted to lend as much money as he wanted to borrow. The discount is there for a reason. As soon as credit ease everyone bid the price up.

So, would you rather leave a pile of money around to time the market? or would you buy constantly and forget about it? How many people are good at the 1st and how many people are good at the 2nd? Personally I am a poor market timer, so I decided to pick a couple US fund and a couple International fund, and dollar cost average them.




One should also know that investing is more than just stocks. Fixed income has its place especially as you get older.
 
Originally Posted By: FowVay
Wealth is NOT an us versus them situation. I never have felt dislike toward the wealthy. I have always sought to be like them.



Originally Posted By: PimTac
Control your own destiny.


Nice to see folks accept personal responsibility for their own wealth! The so called "wealthy" have been greatly disparaged for hoarding all the money when in reality they are the job creators.

Just as was said earlier, I never got a job from a poor man!
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8


Nice to see folks accept personal responsibility for their own wealth! The so called "wealthy" have been greatly disparaged for hoarding all the money when in reality they are the job creators.

Just as was said earlier, I never got a job from a poor man!


They are job providers. Without customers there is no need for the company or workers. Without good employees a company can fail to be successful. They all work together.
 
Originally Posted By: PimTac
I think the op is set on his views and that is sad.

I was a middle class worker who believed in saving 10% right off the top and I started in my twenties. Time and dedication helped me to build a very nice nest egg for retirement.

If one expects everything to be handed to them then they are at the mercy of those doing the handling. Control your own destiny.


Set on my views? I talk stats and reality. Some can and some cannot do many things for any number of reasons. I don't expect all people to be able to do something because some can. Just like because some people can lose weight and keep it off doesn't mean I expect everyone to be able to do it.
It goes back to discipline. Some have it, some don't.
 
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Originally Posted By: ZZman
Set on my views? I talk stats and reality. Some can and some cannot do many things for any number of reasons. I don't expect all people to be able to do something because some can. Just like because some people can lose weight and keep it off doesn't mean I expect everyone to be able to do it.
It goes back to discipline. Some have it, some don't.

Two different things. The second one is "won't", not can't.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8


Just as was said earlier, I never got a job from a poor man!


What is so called wealthy?
The "cheering" of job creators fascinates me. The wealthy are wealthy not only from their drive, desire and risk tolerance but also because of assistance from others. Whether they got a loan or good employees that increased the size of the company. Investing in STOCKS and benefitting from it is really investing in others labor successes.
"Job creators" don't make jobs out of the kindness of their hearts. They do so out of necessity. They provide jobs when they need workers. They eliminate jobs when they don't.
 
Originally Posted By: raytseng
I would say gains do not help as the ave will only get the crumbs.

However when the market crashes the Ave. American pays the price. Either via governmental subsidies bailouts or other incentives using the public money to get business going again .
As well as directly. Company executives are driven by stock prices in a downturn must find a way to cut costs which often falls on the head of employees. While in good times they dont share as equally in thr benefit.


This. Watch. Wall Street grows because they're able to convince an ever-increasing pool to buy in to the system. If it crashes, they'll start talking again about putting some Social Security funds in there... new money going in to bail out the old money getting safe.

SS performs beautifully, IMO, as the labor generated this year gets used this year. Money is, at its core, traded for goods and services. 15% of my labor this year gets traded around until some old geezer gets his sponge bath. The only things we can really "save" are infrastructure improvements and education of the next generation.

Should I gamble that "the market" will be even bigger when I retire than it is now? Well, shoot, I kinda have to, as the guaranteed income accounts like CDs don't keep up with inflation. I didn't invent this game. Knock wood, presently doing all right playing it.
 
Originally Posted By: ZZman
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8


Just as was said earlier, I never got a job from a poor man!


What is so called wealthy?
The "cheering" of job creators fascinates me. The wealthy are wealthy not only from their drive, desire and risk tolerance but also because of assistance from others. Whether they got a loan or good employees that increased the size of the company. Investing in STOCKS and benefitting from it is really investing in others labor successes.
"Job creators" don't make jobs out of the kindness of their hearts. They do so out of necessity. They provide jobs when they need workers. They eliminate jobs when they don't.


Not all "wealthy" people have had assistance from others to become so.

I can think of several examples where "Job Creators" did so solely out of the kindness of their hearts.

You seem to have fallen for the 'class envy' mantra espoused by some.

Finally, what is an "average American"?
 
Originally Posted By: 02SE


Not all "wealthy" people have had assistance from others to become so.

I can think of several examples where "Job Creators" did so solely out of the kindness of their hearts.

You seem to have fallen for the 'class envy' mantra espoused by some.

Finally, what is an "average American"?


How could someone become wealthy without assistance since there is no money tree out there?

You know businesses that hired people they really did not need? Interesting.

The average American I would consider to be those that fall around the middle of median income or wealth. How would you define it?
 
Originally Posted By: ZZman
Originally Posted By: 02SE


Not all "wealthy" people have had assistance from others to become so.

I can think of several examples where "Job Creators" did so solely out of the kindness of their hearts.

You seem to have fallen for the 'class envy' mantra espoused by some.

Finally, what is an "average American"?


How could someone become wealthy without assistance since there is no money tree out there?

You know businesses that hired people they really did not need? Interesting.

The average American I would consider to be those that fall around the middle of median income or wealth. How would you define it?


They work hard, save their own money, and invest it in their idea. Then they work even harder to make it a success.

Yep.

I've never considered my being American, to be based on my net worth.
 
Do stock market gains benefit the average American? Yes they do. I owe my employment opportunities to the owners of the Corporations that I worked for, in fact a poor person has never employeed me. Everyone that is wealthy that I have known or met works much harder and much longer than those without wealth. I consider myself below average comparng myself to my life long friends and relatives. [whatever that could possibly mean]. Two years ago after a family get together my son said to me Dad, of all your cousins you are the only one doesn't have an advanved degree. I said yes son I know but due to all the continuing education auto classes I have taken over the years I have a PhD in jc. [PhD. in Junior College] Kids these days !!
 
Maybe the answer is: Yes it does, but it benefits the wealthy much more since they own almost all the stock....
smile.gif


This of course depends on what businesses do to make Wall Street happy. If they cut 1,000's of jobs or outsource jobs to other countries to make Wall Street happy maybe not so much.
 
Originally Posted By: Kestas
Let's look at it conversely... remember what happened to the average person when the stock market collapsed in 1929 and again in 2009.
Especially those that bought in at the peak of the market!
 
Is there an acceptable percentage of Americans owning stocks directly or indirectly?? While I'm a "lose your middle class, lose your democracy" type of guy, I'm not sure of this potential disconnect you're questioning is one that's supposed to be exhibiting disparity or a mindset toward the market....or both. To me, "average" doesn't mean the same thing as dispossession of wealth. Your time frame also seems to be relatively short.

The average salaried persons ability to get a 5% or 6% matching 401k contribution from their job may mean more to their end result over time than what the average person does or doesn't benefit from the market alone. My retirement plans were benefited as much by the company I worked for than whatever the market did. I believe there are still a few companies that match dollar for dollar up to 12%. Over time, how much of that is the market and how much was that company if you were there for any period of time?? You're decidedly "not average" if you received a 12% matching contribution in a 401k plan so I'm assuming there's a "fairness" component with that...both with someones ability to contribute 12% vs. someone in a similar situation who wasn't able to get such a perk. If you were a rust belt worker in a typical rust belt job, then "average" is likely going to be different to you than me...whatever the statistics say.
 
Originally Posted By: javacontour
Originally Posted By: Kestas
Let's look at it conversely... remember what happened to the average person when the stock market collapsed in 1929 and again in 2009.


As long as you didn't sell in 2009, you probably did ok. You did even better if you were buying when everyone else was selling.
Isn't that the truth-if I had jumped on Bank of America stock at its' low point, I would have been a multimillionaire now, instead of only 3/4 of one.
 
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