DIY ways to check for esters in oil?

[MolaKule]

Here is some info on FTIR http://mmrc.caltech.edu/FTIR/FTIRintro.pdf

Here are some graphs of various spectra:

http://www.chemguide.co.uk/analysis/ir/background.html

 

[BillyTheKid]

1.21 jiggawatts....LOL

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Ahh, a nuclear spectroscopist in our midst.


So, in reference to my page 2 question, were you laughing or shaking your head in the intervening time prior to posting?

 

[rcy]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
How good are you at chemistry and particle physics?


Ahh, a nuclear spectroscopist in our midst.

Describe, using an FT H-Nuclear Magentic Resonance machine, how one would differentiate between 1,1 Dichlorethane and 1,2 Dichlorethane.

Using a mass Spectrograph, Describe the mass-to-charge ratio and relative abundance of the 1-butene spectrum.

Getting back to esters, one can usually detect esters using a Fourier Transform IR by examining the Transmittance percentage verses Wavenumber graphs.

Point is, and as another person has stated, there is no cheap way to detect esters.


Wait a minute...I had just typed out the answer to this part - "Describe, using an FT H-Nuclear Magentic Resonance machine, how one would differentiate between 1,1 Dichlorethane and 1,2 Dichlorethane" - when I realized that I could just smell the oil - if it smells like gummy bears it's ester..lol.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
So, in reference to my page 2 question, were you laughing or shaking your head in the intervening time prior to posting?


No, just saw it last night.

Quote:
This is why I said all the blenders bought their base oils blind, yet Pablo think otherwise.

You might not know what the oil composition really is but at least you can tell if you are getting the same base oil as the last time.


Not sure what this says. A certificate of analysis comes with each batch. If there is any question of quality, we usually have it analyzed by various methods.

 

[Coprolite]

One doesn't need to have high tech machinery to practice supply chain management.

 

[azsynthetic]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule

Quote:
This is why I said all the blenders bought their base oils blind, yet Pablo think otherwise.

You might not know what the oil composition really is but at least you can tell if you are getting the same base oil as the last time.


Not sure what this says. A certificate of analysis comes with each batch. If there is any question of quality, we usually have it analyzed by various methods.


This was exactly my point. A certificate came with the oil but one do not know for sure unless one do the analysis. Amsoil does not do an analysis of every batch of base oil that they have bought if any (Pablo shows no proof of this either). They do a sampling analysis on the their final products. If Mobil came up with a new base oil formula that has the same performance specs as the last one, would Amsoil or anyone knows its chemical composition?

Base oil quality is verified by the buyers for its performance and not by its chemical content. Am I wrong???

 

[azsynthetic]

Originally Posted By: Coprolite
One doesn't need to have high tech machinery to practice supply chain management.


I highly doubt ExxonMobil will let you into their research lab and let you learn their secrets. I am talking about base oil composition and not its performance.

 

[Garak]

I don't think any oil company wants to be fudging certificates of analysis for any blended oils or base stocks they sell. That would open a giant can of worms for the company involved.

They'd be better off to ship something without a certificate and say, "This is what you're getting; you don't like it, send it back and buy elsewhere," than they would by fudging a certificate.

A mistake could certainly be made, but a deceit would be another matter.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: azsynthetic


Base oil quality is verified by the buyers for its performance and not by its chemical content. Am I wrong???


Yes.

 

[azsynthetic]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic


Base oil quality is verified by the buyers for its performance and not by its chemical content. Am I wrong???


Yes.


straight from the guy that sell Amsoil. Hahahahaha, I prefer an opinion someone else that is not pushing the product in question. What make me don't trust your opinion anymore is the fact that you are still clueless about TEM and EELS.

 

[azsynthetic]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
How good are you at chemistry and particle physics?


Ahh, a nuclear spectroscopist in our midst.

Point is, and as another person has stated, there is no cheap way to detect esters.


Apparently there is none here otherwise one would understand what I was aiming at. You are late the party molakule so you need to catch up to all of the threads.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic


Base oil quality is verified by the buyers for its performance and not by its chemical content. Am I wrong???


Yes.


straight from the guy that sell Amsoil. Hahahahaha, I prefer an opinion someone else that is not pushing the product in question. What make me don't trust your opinion anymore is the fact that you are still clueless about TEM and EELS.


Wait. You said "good" (my word) oil companies analyze their incoming base oils (esters included) with an electron microscope. You even said it's the only way. Others, besides me, proved your statements to be completely false and wrong - and you are still bringing this up?

I'm done here. Amsoil does acceptable supplier control and does routinely analyze their incoming materials. End of statement.

 

[azsynthetic]

Originally Posted By: Garak
I don't think any oil company wants to be fudging certificates of analysis for any blended oils or base stocks they sell. That would open a giant can of worms for the company involved.

A mistake could certainly be made, but a deceit would be another matter.


You are kidding right? All of the companies I have worked for and worked with have fudged the product data in their own way. When the product is not working as advertised they will try to get a waiver from the customer or the government. When big money is on the line, anything goes. How many drug companies have been fined by the government and how much? Enough said.

 

[azsynthetic]

Originally Posted By: Pablo

Wait. You said "good" (my word) oil companies analyze their incoming base oils (esters included) with an electron microscope. You even said it's the only way. Others, besides me, proved your statements to be completely false and wrong - and you are still bringing this up?

I'm done here. Amsoil does acceptable supplier control and does routinely analyze their incoming materials. End of statement.


There you go again, putting your words in my mouth. I said no blenders such as Amsoil analyze the base oil that they buy with an electron microscope. Base oil manufacturers do. I will bring it up again and again since you have failed to understand what I have said. You need to read post #2722893 again.

Supplier control and routine analysis are totally different subject matter.

 

[Tom NJ]

Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Base oil quality is verified by the buyers for its performance and not by its chemical content. Am I wrong???


No major oil company would materially change the chemical composition of their base oils without notifying the customers. This is a complete violation of the ISO quality systems they are certified to, and would open them to high liability as even small changes can have adverse effects on finished formulations. In addition, many customers test the base oils they purchase for chemical composition with tests such as FTIR or GC, and any significant changes would be caught quickly.

Tom NJ

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic


Base oil quality is verified by the buyers for its performance and not by its chemical content. Am I wrong???


Yes.


straight from the guy that sell Amsoil. Hahahahaha, I prefer an opinion someone else that is not pushing the product in question. What make me don't trust your opinion anymore is the fact that you are still clueless about TEM and EELS.


Can you explain the QC process of suppliers in the petroleum industry? In effect what you are insulating would open a company up to a possible major liability. This is not a practice successful companies do. Also if a company is caught in something like this word spreads fast not only with the public but also in industries that use their products. If this were to happen it would make more sense for the company to drop bags of 100 dollar bills out of airplanes. The company in question would lose less money that way.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
You are kidding right? All of the companies I have worked for and worked with have fudged the product data in their own way.


Fudging product data and using the "proprietary information" loophole is not the same as fudging a certificate of analysis. Those are entirely different concepts. A PDS, MSDS, and even a waybill can have incorrect information, and it's not an issue from an enforcement perspective. A certificate of analysis is a completely different ball of wax.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
Apparently there is none here otherwise one would understand what I was aiming at. You are late the party molakule so you need to catch up to all of the threads.


Thanks AZ but I have read all the posts and analyzing base oils using SEMS TEMS and EELS or whatever is not correct. I will use a contract lab that has these analytical instruments but only for surface analysis with respect to the testing of a new additive component or chemical compound on metals.

As Tom NJ stated (and he is an expert in the analytical tools used for esters and the resulting formulations of same), we use GCM and FTIR almost exclusively. If I really want to get into the nitty gritty of a base oil or compound, I will use the unversity's Nuclear Magnetic Resonance unit (NMR) using the "spectral" (delta) shifts of C-NMR or H-NMR spectra.

Dropping the conspircy theories for a moment, if a supplier changes his base oil formulation, my contact at the base oil manf. might send me a note stating something like, "this ester formula has been changed slightly and we are now changing from C16, C18 blah blah blah to C18, C20, in order to decrease the volatlity or stabilize it against hydrolysis," or send a letter stating this fact.

So maybe if you could state your question or comment in a different manner, maybe we can answer your question or your comment(s).

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
A certificate of analysis is a completely different ball of wax.


A certificate of analysis ((COA) is usually in the form of a Table which lists the following:

Product Name

Lot/Batch Number

Properties (Viscosity, FP, PP, TAN, Appearance, Water Content, Density, etc)

Specification (Target Properties)

ANALYSIS (What it really tested as)

METHOD (Method of Analysis for above using ASTM or other test protocol)

and Signed by the Quality Assurance Manager or Supervisor.

An MSDS is NOT the same as a COA. An MSDS is only used to report components that may affect Health such as Toxicity, etc, and WILL NOT contain information about its proprietary formulation. So don't rely on an MSDS to tell you all the components contained therein.