I use synthetic. I have a turbo charged 4 banger. Amsoil ASL 5w30. Used to use Series 2000 0w30 and I am currently debating on using Series 3000, but I really dont know if it would be better than ASL
Dino or Synthetic? - Your real world experiences
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A notion that is often missed in these type of discussions is: Once something is "good enough", "better" is meaningless.
Come on, when someone is trying to convince us how much better synth oil is by quoting pour points that are more applicable to lunar service than terrestrial, we have a problem.
It's just like with oil filters, shure you could make a "better" one out of titanium billet with stainless steel media, etc. However when a normal one costs 2% as much and works as-intended, what is the point in your NASA-grade filter, to run million-mile OCIs with your negative 0w-10 synth oil on your lunar rover?
SynLube is another example of extremes. How usefull is a lifetime fill when dino oil is $2 and your engine has a drain plug? Seriously, who really needs longer than a one year oci? (present company excluded)
Come on, when someone is trying to convince us how much better synth oil is by quoting pour points that are more applicable to lunar service than terrestrial, we have a problem.
It's just like with oil filters, shure you could make a "better" one out of titanium billet with stainless steel media, etc. However when a normal one costs 2% as much and works as-intended, what is the point in your NASA-grade filter, to run million-mile OCIs with your negative 0w-10 synth oil on your lunar rover?
SynLube is another example of extremes. How usefull is a lifetime fill when dino oil is $2 and your engine has a drain plug? Seriously, who really needs longer than a one year oci? (present company excluded)
Originally Posted By: 06VtecV6
That synthetic blends aka semi-synthetics are the best of both worlds for 'conventional' *no pun intended* 5000 mile-ish etc.(MMS/OLM dictated) oil changes.
Oh that and if you see your particular oil in the UOA section of BITOG and it shows the same oil in the same car hold up well to a certain OCI which can then allow you to prove your own oil and OCI decisions which from what I see, my particular semi-synthetic holds up well for 5000 mile high heat but no hauling, racing application.
Generally if you have an OLM/MMS, you're right on point and are helping protect your car for just a little pocket change, it's definitely worth it.
If the engineers of these OLM/MMS systems use conventional oil as their benchmark, wouldn't that tell you adding a little synthetic oil and marketing it as semi-synthetic or synthetic blend would make that oil the very best? Remember, as long as these MMS/OLM systems are cranking out 5000-7000 (and on up) mile OCIs on REGULAR CONVENTIONAL OIL, well then it shouldn't take a rocket scientist to glean the fact that adding a bit of full synthetic into conventional and 'blending' it into a semi-synthetic would make SS the best of both worlds?!
It makes the point of using full synthetic irrelevant.
One thing that noone has proved thus far ever is that anyone is smarter then the engineers that make the car and the car makers who employ the absolute best and brightest.
That synthetic blends aka semi-synthetics are the best of both worlds for 'conventional' *no pun intended* 5000 mile-ish etc.(MMS/OLM dictated) oil changes.
Oh that and if you see your particular oil in the UOA section of BITOG and it shows the same oil in the same car hold up well to a certain OCI which can then allow you to prove your own oil and OCI decisions which from what I see, my particular semi-synthetic holds up well for 5000 mile high heat but no hauling, racing application.
Generally if you have an OLM/MMS, you're right on point and are helping protect your car for just a little pocket change, it's definitely worth it.
If the engineers of these OLM/MMS systems use conventional oil as their benchmark, wouldn't that tell you adding a little synthetic oil and marketing it as semi-synthetic or synthetic blend would make that oil the very best? Remember, as long as these MMS/OLM systems are cranking out 5000-7000 (and on up) mile OCIs on REGULAR CONVENTIONAL OIL, well then it shouldn't take a rocket scientist to glean the fact that adding a bit of full synthetic into conventional and 'blending' it into a semi-synthetic would make SS the best of both worlds?!
It makes the point of using full synthetic irrelevant.
One thing that noone has proved thus far ever is that anyone is smarter then the engineers that make the car and the car makers who employ the absolute best and brightest.
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Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: tripleM
cause u get a fool who so often interject with 'it costs more it must be better.'
Where the real world data doesn't support that contention @ all.
Please show us the real world data. I want to see the 10K+ OCI UOA's on dino. I want to see the real world pump and flow data on dino 10W-30 at -20°F. I want to see all the sludge engines with synthetic at 7.5K miles. If you make contentions that there is no difference at all, then prove it with real numbers.
I'm not defending this guy, but criminy you start beating on him mercilessly for his writing skills. And the same people doing the beating complain about lack of data being used on BITOG. Interesting.
If dino works for you, use it.
Since conventional oil is cheaper, no need to run it 10k+ ocis.
Mobil tried that with their Mobil 1 EP and it was a marketing joke IMO.
Who is saying that you should run 10w-30 @ 20 below? (I have in a few engines and they are still running)
That is what 5w30 is for.. It works well. (I think it gets cold here. My sister in Montana uses 5w-20 and 5w30 and it gets REAL cold there. No problems in her 93 Caravan with 200+K, 2003 Taurus or 1994 F250 (it actually uses a diesel 5w-40).
I want to see all the sludge engines with conventional @ 7.5k too.
If you talking about all the Toyota motors I'd bet (and so does Toyota) that those engines did not get 7.5k OCIs either. And some of them were not following the severe service schedule even though they were being operated in such service.
Some of them were arriving at the dealership with Sludging issues with less than 20k on them.. (and the FACTORY OIL FILTER meaning that the filter was NEVER changed, we can guess about the oil)
(In 2005 Toyota simplified the OCI. Everything gets a 6 month or 5k OCI period. No oil issues since)
At 5k OCI I'll say that it does not matter.
I've done UOAs on a few motors here and you've seen the data. If you want to discount the data due to it being a $20 UOA, fine but I'd hope that you discount ALL of the UOAs no matter what oil.
I've said that if cost was no problem, I'd run Amsoil 7500 XL for 7,500 miles. But cost per mile is not close to other oils I can get. And in the end, it does not matter.
But, If I was paying full retail for Mobil 1, PP, or any other over the counter syn, I'd be buying Amsoil XL from Pabs in a sec. And if conventional oil gets anymore expensive (since the deals are gone)
Pablo will be seeing a repeat customer.
Take care, bill
PS: (Did I kiss up well enough Pabs?)
(but it is true, I've stated that in other threads folks)
Originally Posted By: tripleM
cause u get a fool who so often interject with 'it costs more it must be better.'
Where the real world data doesn't support that contention @ all.
Please show us the real world data. I want to see the 10K+ OCI UOA's on dino. I want to see the real world pump and flow data on dino 10W-30 at -20°F. I want to see all the sludge engines with synthetic at 7.5K miles. If you make contentions that there is no difference at all, then prove it with real numbers.
I'm not defending this guy, but criminy you start beating on him mercilessly for his writing skills. And the same people doing the beating complain about lack of data being used on BITOG. Interesting.
If dino works for you, use it.
Since conventional oil is cheaper, no need to run it 10k+ ocis.
Mobil tried that with their Mobil 1 EP and it was a marketing joke IMO.
Who is saying that you should run 10w-30 @ 20 below? (I have in a few engines and they are still running)
That is what 5w30 is for.. It works well. (I think it gets cold here. My sister in Montana uses 5w-20 and 5w30 and it gets REAL cold there. No problems in her 93 Caravan with 200+K, 2003 Taurus or 1994 F250 (it actually uses a diesel 5w-40).
I want to see all the sludge engines with conventional @ 7.5k too.
If you talking about all the Toyota motors I'd bet (and so does Toyota) that those engines did not get 7.5k OCIs either. And some of them were not following the severe service schedule even though they were being operated in such service.
Some of them were arriving at the dealership with Sludging issues with less than 20k on them.. (and the FACTORY OIL FILTER meaning that the filter was NEVER changed, we can guess about the oil)
(In 2005 Toyota simplified the OCI. Everything gets a 6 month or 5k OCI period. No oil issues since)
At 5k OCI I'll say that it does not matter.
I've done UOAs on a few motors here and you've seen the data. If you want to discount the data due to it being a $20 UOA, fine but I'd hope that you discount ALL of the UOAs no matter what oil.
I've said that if cost was no problem, I'd run Amsoil 7500 XL for 7,500 miles. But cost per mile is not close to other oils I can get. And in the end, it does not matter.
But, If I was paying full retail for Mobil 1, PP, or any other over the counter syn, I'd be buying Amsoil XL from Pabs in a sec. And if conventional oil gets anymore expensive (since the deals are gone)
Take care, bill
PS: (Did I kiss up well enough Pabs?)
Originally Posted By: 06VtecV6
One thing that noone has proved thus far ever is that anyone is smarter then the engineers that make the car and the car makers who employ the absolute best and brightest.
Well, there have been mistakes. Audi's 10k ocis on their turbos lead to some real problems. Other people can cite example that are better known to them. I'll toss in the Chrysler 2.7 as another.
One thing that noone has proved thus far ever is that anyone is smarter then the engineers that make the car and the car makers who employ the absolute best and brightest.
Well, there have been mistakes. Audi's 10k ocis on their turbos lead to some real problems. Other people can cite example that are better known to them. I'll toss in the Chrysler 2.7 as another.
Personal experience is that new oil feels the best to the engine, and between dino and synthetic, synthetic feels new for longer.
MPG is slightly better with synthetic (0.5 mpg or so when fresh) up to about the same OCI. If I run synthetic for 7.5K and dino for 5k, the last 2.5k of synthetic oil is not as good as the dino's last 2.5k miles.
To save money, run dino.
To save time, run synthetic and extend OCI to 7.5K.
To feel "nice", run fresh oil.
MPG is slightly better with synthetic (0.5 mpg or so when fresh) up to about the same OCI. If I run synthetic for 7.5K and dino for 5k, the last 2.5k of synthetic oil is not as good as the dino's last 2.5k miles.
To save money, run dino.
To save time, run synthetic and extend OCI to 7.5K.
To feel "nice", run fresh oil.
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I run 12K (km) OCI's with M1. I've been using M1 in various grades since the early 90's.
I drive HARD. I've accrued a LOT of mileage.
My junk stays clean inside.
Those are facts.
I drive HARD. I've accrued a LOT of mileage.
My junk stays clean inside.
Those are facts.
Several cars I've owned have been turbocharged, including my current Saab Aero and five Lotus Esprits (four of them turbos). I've used synthetics religously and have never had an oil related problem.
Recently switched to Elf (www.ElfOils.US) synthetics on the Saab, wife's Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited tow vehicle, and my Radiical SR3 race car with a Suzuki Hayabusa engine.
Biggest difference was when we swapped from Silkolene to Elf in the Radical. The car idled smoother and ran a bit cooler on the track at similar ambient temperatures.
Feff
Recently switched to Elf (www.ElfOils.US) synthetics on the Saab, wife's Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited tow vehicle, and my Radiical SR3 race car with a Suzuki Hayabusa engine.
Biggest difference was when we swapped from Silkolene to Elf in the Radical. The car idled smoother and ran a bit cooler on the track at similar ambient temperatures.
Feff
Originally Posted By: StevieC
I just thought I would start a thread talking about Dino/Synthetic and your experiences and why you choose what you do.
... I will leave it for debate ...
You succeeded.
I just thought I would start a thread talking about Dino/Synthetic and your experiences and why you choose what you do.
... I will leave it for debate ...
You succeeded.
I try...
The only time I've ever felt the "need" to run synthetics is to extend the OCI on my old fleet vehicles. I got tired of changing the oil once a month on fourteen vehicles, and synthetic allowed me to safely go three months or so without changing the oil. I was able to stagger the changes to where I was only doing four or five vehicles a month. The cost ended up the slightly more than what I would have got running dino, and the protection wasn't noticeably better than what conventional offered, but I liked the less frequent changes.
Even now the hardest run car in our family fleet is the 06 Sebring, and it gets about 3,000 miles a month put on it. I still rarely run full syn; I feel that a blend like Motorcraft offers sufficient protection for 7-8k miles. I wouldn't take it much further than that based on UOA's, nor would I take the full syns past 9-10k. The extra cost of a full synthetic doesn't outweigh the extra one or two thousand miles that it gives me over a blend.
Even now the hardest run car in our family fleet is the 06 Sebring, and it gets about 3,000 miles a month put on it. I still rarely run full syn; I feel that a blend like Motorcraft offers sufficient protection for 7-8k miles. I wouldn't take it much further than that based on UOA's, nor would I take the full syns past 9-10k. The extra cost of a full synthetic doesn't outweigh the extra one or two thousand miles that it gives me over a blend.
I've never used anything but dino in my cars (something like 11 cars in 33 years, some were with me 5 or more years, some only 1-2). Until now, that is, trying Pennzoil Platinum in the 3.8 engine. Since coming here I've realized that modern dino can easily go 5000 miles -- in fact the Buick's OLM, calculating from the way I drive the car, is pointing to something closer to 6500-7000.
So I'll use whatever dino's on sale (esp. if a filter's included!), 5000-5500 miles, twice a year. If for some reason I wanted to extend intervals to a year, so that I'd only have to climb under the car once in 12 months, then a full synthetic would make sense.
So I'll use whatever dino's on sale (esp. if a filter's included!), 5000-5500 miles, twice a year. If for some reason I wanted to extend intervals to a year, so that I'd only have to climb under the car once in 12 months, then a full synthetic would make sense.
I do 10,000KM (6,250 Miles), in 2 months that's why I run Syn and change it every 2 months instead of every month like I was doing with Dino. I have just gotten a lab report back from Terry Dyson and he says it would be safe for me to run 16,000KM (25,600 Miles) on the same change with my Amsoil. So I will be running this in the near future.
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
MPG is slightly better with synthetic (0.5 mpg or so when fresh) up to about the same OCI. If I run synthetic for 7.5K and dino for 5k, the last 2.5k of synthetic oil is not as good as the dino's last 2.5k miles.
To save money, run dino.
To save time, run synthetic and extend OCI to 7.5K.
To feel "nice", run fresh oil.
That's only 50% more miles at 100% more money.
(Based on 2.5K extra miles & $2 more per qt synth vs. dino)
The point I don't get - Pablo implies I should be getting 10K miles on a Synth OCI if I am paying 2x as much as a dino.
Yet most ppl pour synth out
Then ppl introduce other variables such as extreme temps & towing into the comparison & the normalized comparison isn't normal anymore.
I do recognize the extreme cycle performance potential of synth, but I do think that for everyday usage, dino will cover most americans at 1/2 the cost without sacrificing 1/2 the performance.
As some1 wrote above:
The extra cost of a full synthetic doesn't outweigh the extra one or two thousand miles that it gives me over a blend.
MPG is slightly better with synthetic (0.5 mpg or so when fresh) up to about the same OCI. If I run synthetic for 7.5K and dino for 5k, the last 2.5k of synthetic oil is not as good as the dino's last 2.5k miles.
To save money, run dino.
To save time, run synthetic and extend OCI to 7.5K.
To feel "nice", run fresh oil.
That's only 50% more miles at 100% more money.
(Based on 2.5K extra miles & $2 more per qt synth vs. dino)
The point I don't get - Pablo implies I should be getting 10K miles on a Synth OCI if I am paying 2x as much as a dino.
Yet most ppl pour synth out
Then ppl introduce other variables such as extreme temps & towing into the comparison & the normalized comparison isn't normal anymore.
I do recognize the extreme cycle performance potential of synth, but I do think that for everyday usage, dino will cover most americans at 1/2 the cost without sacrificing 1/2 the performance.
As some1 wrote above:
The extra cost of a full synthetic doesn't outweigh the extra one or two thousand miles that it gives me over a blend.
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12,000 km oil changes on our '07 Uplander,
I need dino .... but I want/use syn.
I need dino .... but I want/use syn.
I use synthetic only because I am a DIY type. I hate to take any more pain than I have to. Frequent oil changes are fine as long as someone else is doing them for you in which case, dino would be just fine.
Anyone can tweek the cost/mi figures when they are randomly picking how many miles they will dump the various example.
Let's start with and stick with the known facts. Synth COSTS 2-3 times as much money as dino. Can you run it 2-3 times as long? I dunno. Look at Mobil Clean to Mobil 1 EP as an example. 5000 to 15,000 miles service life is offered. Is that a "known"? Yes, kind of, but two counter points are:
1) Do people really want to go that far? Some very few do, not me. I can change my oil in 5 minutes.
2) Can extended drain oils go that far anyway? I don't think the final results are in on that, but do you want to RISK that to save a little on labour???
Heck, 7500 on discount dino is VERY hard to beat on a cost/effective basis. Discount dino is always available, BOGO/Rebate synth is more of an exception.
Let's start with and stick with the known facts. Synth COSTS 2-3 times as much money as dino. Can you run it 2-3 times as long? I dunno. Look at Mobil Clean to Mobil 1 EP as an example. 5000 to 15,000 miles service life is offered. Is that a "known"? Yes, kind of, but two counter points are:
1) Do people really want to go that far? Some very few do, not me. I can change my oil in 5 minutes.
2) Can extended drain oils go that far anyway? I don't think the final results are in on that, but do you want to RISK that to save a little on labour???
Heck, 7500 on discount dino is VERY hard to beat on a cost/effective basis. Discount dino is always available, BOGO/Rebate synth is more of an exception.
I don't use Dino because I would have to change it more often that the what I change my syn because of the miles I do... Also Dino in my opinion might leave more deposits which can act as abrasives versus the syn. Not saying it will, but I believe it does. Also Dino doesn't flow as well as syn in the winter and where I live it's very cold in the winter. Considering most wear occurs on start-up it's better to have the oil there ASAP. Just my :2cents:
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The RECOMMENDED OCI using conventional for my Townie is 7,000Km per Ford. I'm running almost twice that at 12K intervals. Obviously the quality of conventional oil has come a LONG way since 1989 but I would not feel comfortable running this OCI even on a modern conventional after the number of junk laden small block Ford and GM engines I've seen. This is a personal choice I've made, based on experience. I've never seen an ugly engine that ran M1. But I've seen plenty of ugly ones that haven't.
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