Different countries using different viscosities

[mjoekingz28]

Originally Posted By: 69GTX
The US has Calif/CAFE which drives a lot of the issue. I don't think much of the world is yet concerned about that last 0.1% of increased fuel mileage when they have much bigger issues to worry about.

The US also has a very wide temperature extreme from South Texas and Florida in summer to Montana/North Dakota/Alaska in the winter. Much easier for auto mfgs to spec one thinner size to fit all. I drove my 1997 Lincoln 4.6 to 232K miles on the 5w30 recommended oil. My 2002 has the identical engine but is spec'd for 5w-20 due to CAFE standards. I'm sticking with what worked before.




What I want to know is why all of a sudden we went from using temperature charts speccing from 5w-20 to 20-50 depending on ambient. Then, they say -40-+110, oh 5w-20 is fine. Did something change?

 

[CT8]

CAFE standards !

 

[CT8]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
I'm still not convinced that an engine specified to run 0W-20 is too tight to run 10w30.

As if the oil won't fit in the bearings or something.
The clearance thing is people regurgitating some thing they don't know any thing about but since they read it it must be fact.

 

[Pontual]

At 40F+ 0w20 or 25w60 are pretty well pumpable as liquids, the problem resides below freezing, on the later.Here now at 100F, it doesnt matter.

 

[Kamele0N]

Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
I think there a lot of reasons. Europe has many small cars with manual transmissions and lots of drivers that think they are either Mario Andretti, or a trucker (and are in 4th by 15 mph...). Both cases need higher HTHS for protection

In North America, lots of automatic transmissions and drivers that "cruise" as a driving style. Big engines under light stress. Some will never get anywhere near redline in their entire life... So oil has a somewhat easier life.



In EU small 1.4 T-Jet (Fiat/Alfa/Lancia) engine can have as far as 190HP ( Fiat 500 Biposto)....or 160HP in its Abarth conversion.....or 120-140HP in every day daily banger (Fiat Punto).....

Same story with other downsized engines of other manufactures (VW 2.0TDI twinturbo can have as high as 240HP)

Add higher speeds here on our highways (between 140-160 km/hs in avarage)

And manual gearboxes doesnt represent such a big deal...because we do know what is DSG/DCT gearbox here in EU

And IF you want to joke that we are driving like a truckers.....avarage automatic gerbox shifts to soon for my opinion (at to low rpms)....

So you (americans) are those who are driving like a truckers

In other hand...in US of A you have cars with automatic gearboxes (lower rpms).....4,2L V8 engine normaly has around 200-250HP

(lower rpms again).....you are looking how to get better milage...partly because of CAFE...partly because you are driving BIG gasoline guzzlers (lower rpms again)....


So......

bottom the line...that is why we need thicker oils....

And your cars can drive away with just oily water in a crankcase

 

[BrocLuno]

No, I said some in Europe drive like closed course racers (redlines are their friends), and some drive like truckers short shifting like crazy. I never said all Europeans drive that way.

But it sure does bug me when my relatives in Holland with their little three cylinder car short shift, and we all have to rattle and vibrate while they chug up to speed

I think that's about as sensible as CAFE - maybe o.1 mpg at best

Well, at $9/gallon (equivalent) I guess they have their reasons...

I much prefer a bit of zoom

I never said tolerances were closer - don't know where that snuck in ...

But I do know that variance has closed up with modern machining. And that does affect the oil choice, as the engineers do not have to be as concerned with outlier clearances ... They do not have to range their lube choices for the odd more open clearance like in the old days

 

[volodymyr]

BrocLuno,

Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
No, I said some in Europe drive like closed course racers (redlines are their friends), and some drive like truckers short shifting like crazy. I never said all Europeans drive that way.


It really depends on country. I am not in EU, but still in Europe and speeding/driving aggressively is a big deal here: http://lenews.ch/2015/04/23/new-swiss-driving-rules-could-have-you-locked-up-and-deported/

So, if the speed limit is 80 km/h outside of city and you do something like 140 km/h and higher you can see some prison time. In cities rules are more strict.

 

[fdcg27]

The recommendations for the US and Europe were never the same.
As I mentioned above, well before CAFE 20W-20s were commonly recommended in this country and 10w30 was the standard all climate grade for decades.
In Europe, 20W-50 was the default recommendation for many vehicles.
Check out some old Euro OMs and you'll see this.
20W-50 was recommended for warm weather in all four old Benzes we've owned as well as both old BMWs, just as an example.
It was even the recommended summer grade for my totally gutless MGB while the smaller engined higher revving Civic we had at the same time called for a 10w30. I used a 10W-40 in both although a 10w30 would likely have been fine for either.

 

[Torrid]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
I'm still not convinced that an engine specified to run 0W-20 is too tight to run 10w30.

As if the oil won't fit in the bearings or something.


Exactly. By example the LS in my sig is specc'd for 5w-20 but with previous models being specc'd to 5w30 as we all know oil weight really isn't that important and with the Jag calling for 5w30 I prefer to only stock one grade of oil for simplicity. Add in the lack of need to worry about cold start flow for the climate here and I'm going with 10w30 next time to benefit from lower NOACK as well. I'd be very surprised if the LS's 3.9 V8 cared. I know before I got it the dealer had used Motorcraft 5w-20 and compared to the similarly designed Jaguar 4.2 V8 the engine sounded mechanically noticeably louder to me. The next oil change which I did the same day on both cars with the Edge listed in my signature and the LS is much quieter. I'm not against using 5w-20, far from it, but with the positive sound reduction and ease of stocking one grade it's an easy choice for my situation.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: Kamele0N
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
I think there a lot of reasons. Europe has many small cars with manual transmissions and lots of drivers that think they are either Mario Andretti, or a trucker (and are in 4th by 15 mph...). Both cases need higher HTHS for protection

In North America, lots of automatic transmissions and drivers that "cruise" as a driving style. Big engines under light stress. Some will never get anywhere near redline in their entire life... So oil has a somewhat easier life.



In EU small 1.4 T-Jet (Fiat/Alfa/Lancia) engine can have as far as 190HP ( Fiat 500 Biposto)....or 160HP in its Abarth conversion.....or 120-140HP in every day daily banger (Fiat Punto).....

Same story with other downsized engines of other manufactures (VW 2.0TDI twinturbo can have as high as 240HP)

Add higher speeds here on our highways (between 140-160 km/hs in avarage)

And manual gearboxes doesnt represent such a big deal...because we do know what is DSG/DCT gearbox here in EU

And IF you want to joke that we are driving like a truckers.....avarage automatic gerbox shifts to soon for my opinion (at to low rpms)....

So you (americans) are those who are driving like a truckers

In other hand...in US of A you have cars with automatic gearboxes (lower rpms).....4,2L V8 engine normaly has around 200-250HP

(lower rpms again).....you are looking how to get better milage...partly because of CAFE...partly because you are driving BIG gasoline guzzlers (lower rpms again)....


So......

bottom the line...that is why we need thicker oils....

And your cars can drive away with just oily water in a crankcase

We may have water, but you have tar. LOL

 

[Leo99]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
I think that the simple explanation is that most engines will run happily and wear well on a variety of grades.
We've had plenty of cars here for which 5W-20 has been the recommended grade for more than a decade. OW-20 is merely a logical extension of this. Well prior to that, 20W-20 was a widely used and recommended grade.
The fairly thin 10w30 grade was the overwhelming recommendation for cars sold in this market for decades. Few manufacturers recommended even a 10W-40 and some actively advised against the use of that grade.
In contrast, the 20W-50 grade was originally developed for a very specific shared-sump application and then spread like kudzu through the European car industry.
Europeans seem to be more accustomed to and comfortable with thicker oils than are most of us here.
OTOH, it is amusing to see people on this site who live in relatively moderate climates deciding that they must use 0W-XX oils.
Nothing wrong either way. The engines won't know the difference and the engines will typically outlast the vehicle in which they're installed.


It would be rather funny if truth was that the engines don't care one way or the other. All this hand-wringing on here about what oil and viscosity and the engines happily run on a wide variety of viscosities. Last time I looked at a oil/ambient-temperature chart, there was a lot of overlap of viscosities.

 

[alcyon]

all this outlast the body talk may be relevant to 90% of you, but what about those of us who want our engines to last our lifetimes aka "forever".
What about us ?

 

[Dyusik]

Originally Posted By: volodymyr
BrocLuno,

Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
No, I said some in Europe drive like closed course racers (redlines are their friends), and some drive like truckers short shifting like crazy. I never said all Europeans drive that way.


It really depends on country. I am not in EU, but still in Europe and speeding/driving aggressively is a big deal here: http://lenews.ch/2015/04/23/new-swiss-driving-rules-could-have-you-locked-up-and-deported/

So, if the speed limit is 80 km/h outside of city and you do something like 140 km/h and higher you can see some prison time. In cities rules are more strict.


I think the reference was to how much work an Opel Corsa has to do to get to the speed limit as compared to a 7.4L V8 in the US.

 

[FCD]

That is true, a lot of people short shift way too soon here, i don't get why they do it, they must think they are getting better fuel economy that way when really they're putting a massive load on the engine

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
That is true, a lot of people short shift way too soon here, i don't get why they do it, they must think they are getting better fuel economy that way when really they're putting a massive load on the engine


I see it here too. It's like the first person to get to 4th wins a prize.

 

[Garak]

Maybe they should just get an automatic. It'll win that race for you without any effort at all.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Maybe they should just get an automatic. It'll win that race for you without any effort at all.

Yes I agree, if you don't enjoy changing gears, then just buy an automatic.

Most government departments and large companies only buy auto's now days.

 

[Olas]

Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
I think there a lot of reasons. Europe has many small cars with manual transmissions and lots of drivers that think they are either Mario Andretti, or a trucker (and are in 4th by 15 mph...). Both cases need higher HTHS for protection

In North America, lots of automatic transmissions and drivers that "cruise" as a driving style. Big engines under light stress. Some will never get anywhere near redline in their entire life... So oil has a somewhat easier life.

But, we do have snow and cold. It even freezes in Florida, so cold start is an issue. 10w30 covered most of these issues well for many decades.

Now, engines are made better. CNC machining and newer tooling in general means better fits. And newer metallurgy means better parts wear. So the engine can get by with a bit less viscosity.

Yeah, in the desert southwest we do need to step up the oil game in summer. But we don't have to start in Norway in winter. So the synthetics that do well in 125*F heat, mostly do well in the middle of America in winter too.

Used to be you changed oil often enough that you had a fall/winter fill and a spring/summer fill. But with longer OCI, there is need to make one oil do it's job year round. So 5w30 for lots of folks. 0w30 for others. And for really well fit engines, 0W-20 will do during warranty period. After that, you're on your own anyway. So do what seems best. Listen to the motor. Do UOS's and read-up.

Modern oils are good. Better than what we had 20 years ago. So I think the days of 20W-50 for cars is gone here. Still in bikes though.

And of course, with Uncle Sam breathing down the MFG's necks for Corp Average Fuel Economy (CAFE), they will take even 0.1 MPG into account. It adds up on millions sold. Slippery'er thinner oils are doing their part

Until they get to my driveway

Mario Andretti?! I'm Walter Rohrl!!
More importantly, viscosity as described in SAE J300 should be chosen on the climate in which the car will be used. Legislation and political pandering have led to a misuse of the system, most commonly by US OEMs.

 

[Olas]

Originally Posted By: Dyusik
Originally Posted By: volodymyr
BrocLuno,

Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
No, I said some in Europe drive like closed course racers (redlines are their friends), and some drive like truckers short shifting like crazy. I never said all Europeans drive that way.


It really depends on country. I am not in EU, but still in Europe and speeding/driving aggressively is a big deal here: http://lenews.ch/2015/04/23/new-swiss-driving-rules-could-have-you-locked-up-and-deported/

So, if the speed limit is 80 km/h outside of city and you do something like 140 km/h and higher you can see some prison time. In cities rules are more strict.


I think the reference was to how much work an Opel Corsa has to do to get to the speed limit as compared to a 7.4L V8 in the US.


Bad choice of words - "work done" was the first metric of power, and BHP is derived from "work done" which is best described as Work = Force x Distance. When you consider the difference in weight between the Corsa and the Domestic, "work done" looks different.

Look here http://avstop.com/ac/apgeneral/workpowerandenergy.html

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: SR5
Most government departments and large companies only buy auto's now days.

Heck, I don't think you can even buy a diesel pickup anymore (and probably not a gasser either) with a standard. It might be possible with something like an F-550 or the really gargantuan stuff, but "normal" 3/4 ton and 1 tons miss out, if I recall correctly. I think Ram was the last holdout.