I just picked up a 2004 F250 6.0 PSD.. and was wondering if the warm up time for a diesel engine should be the same as a gasser? Ie, gas engines warm up faster with a 1-2 min idle and then a gentle drive off.. Do diesel engines require more idling or do they also reach operating temperature faster under light throttle driving?
Diesel engine warm up time?
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On a diesel, it is best to start as you stated and let it idle for 30-60 seconds and then drive off. Keep the RPM under 2000 until you start getting into the normal range on your temp guage. Remember in very cold weather, you must slowly warm the differentials and transmission also. So if you let it idle to warm up, and then get in and drive normal, the trans and diffs really suffer. Just my personal opinion on this.
By the way, congratulations on your new truck. My first PSD I bought new in 95 and the second in 02, a left over 01. So I won't get the 6.0 for a few years. But I still test drive one at the dealer every few months to dream.
By the way, congratulations on your new truck. My first PSD I bought new in 95 and the second in 02, a left over 01. So I won't get the 6.0 for a few years. But I still test drive one at the dealer every few months to dream.
Hi,
it is best to avoid idling a diesel at any time!
Due to the usually large coolant and oil capacities most diesels do take a long time to attain their designed and stabilised "core" operating temperature
We instruct our drivers to stabilse the idle for about 30 seconds then move off and use the minimum revs needed until the idle oil pressure is at the normal "hot" position. In my heavy trucks this can be 20-30 minutes or so depending on circumstances
When shutting off a turbo diesel follow the makers idle down time if noted. We instruct our drivers to shut down when the pyrometer is at its normal flat road running temp or lower!
I never allow them to use the ECM's idle timer!
Regards
Doug
it is best to avoid idling a diesel at any time!
Due to the usually large coolant and oil capacities most diesels do take a long time to attain their designed and stabilised "core" operating temperature
We instruct our drivers to stabilse the idle for about 30 seconds then move off and use the minimum revs needed until the idle oil pressure is at the normal "hot" position. In my heavy trucks this can be 20-30 minutes or so depending on circumstances
When shutting off a turbo diesel follow the makers idle down time if noted. We instruct our drivers to shut down when the pyrometer is at its normal flat road running temp or lower!
I never allow them to use the ECM's idle timer!
Regards
Doug
Thanks VMan.. The 03's had a few first year issues but now for the most part they have been ironed out. Put on about 1000km so far and no problems. The 5 spd auto tranny is very nice too..
Question about idling. I will use this truck for work too, mainly hauling about 1000-1500 lbs with a lot of stop and go. During that time, I will stop for about 5-10 mins to load/off load.. Would it be better to keep the truck idling during that time because the manual recommnends 5-7 min of cooldown time after heavy usage? Would it not be worse for the turbo if I just shut it off while loading/unloading and then restart?
How long should I keep the oem fill in there for? 2-3K km?
Question about idling. I will use this truck for work too, mainly hauling about 1000-1500 lbs with a lot of stop and go. During that time, I will stop for about 5-10 mins to load/off load.. Would it be better to keep the truck idling during that time because the manual recommnends 5-7 min of cooldown time after heavy usage? Would it not be worse for the turbo if I just shut it off while loading/unloading and then restart?
How long should I keep the oem fill in there for? 2-3K km?
Using your engine heater is a huge help in cold weather. The engine will start easier, warm up sooner, and have less wear due to getting to normal (warm) dimensions sooner.
Synthetic oil is also a big help if the weather is really cold. Petro-Canada Duron, Schaeffer #700, and Mobil Delavc 1 are all good.
How hot your turbocharger gets is dependent on how hard you're running the engine, not how heavy your load is. If you're hauling that heavy load at highway speeds, yes, you're burning additional fuel that causes the hotter turbo. If you're just running from one stop light to another, it's not so bad. Installation of an exhaust temperature gauge is a wise idea.
Ken
Synthetic oil is also a big help if the weather is really cold. Petro-Canada Duron, Schaeffer #700, and Mobil Delavc 1 are all good.
How hot your turbocharger gets is dependent on how hard you're running the engine, not how heavy your load is. If you're hauling that heavy load at highway speeds, yes, you're burning additional fuel that causes the hotter turbo. If you're just running from one stop light to another, it's not so bad. Installation of an exhaust temperature gauge is a wise idea.
Ken
I will definitely plug it in during winter and use a synthetic oil, probably the Esso XD-3 0w40.
I would have thought that driving on the hwy at steady speeds/throttle would be easier on the engine than constant stop and go under heavier throttle? I'll be doing mostly the latter.
I would have thought that driving on the hwy at steady speeds/throttle would be easier on the engine than constant stop and go under heavier throttle? I'll be doing mostly the latter.
I don't know if they're available on the powerstroke, but I've got a Jacob's exhaust brake and my Dodge/Cummins. On cold start I engage it, let it idle, and the backpressure created raises the coolant temp in a few minutes, it's not hot, but warm enough to start driving normally. I also engage it if idling for extended periods of time in the winter, and engine temp never drops. The big problem with diesels idling, is the cylinder heads cooling down causing fuel dilution of the lube oil.
I also have a pyrometer, and if driving hard, allow the EGT to cool to 300-400 degrees before I shut down.
Now mind you, 98% of the amublances in the United States are on Ford chassis, most equipped with the PSD, and I'm sure it's hammer down after start-up, and they're abrupty shut down. I don't know about the new 6.0, but the 7.3's last a long time in this application, none the worse for wear.
And congratulations on your new piece of fine machinery.
I also have a pyrometer, and if driving hard, allow the EGT to cool to 300-400 degrees before I shut down.
Now mind you, 98% of the amublances in the United States are on Ford chassis, most equipped with the PSD, and I'm sure it's hammer down after start-up, and they're abrupty shut down. I don't know about the new 6.0, but the 7.3's last a long time in this application, none the worse for wear.
And congratulations on your new piece of fine machinery.
Yup, those 7.3's are hard to kill.. at my work they use 2 of those and 3 03 6.0's and they are definitely NOT taken care of very well or treated well by the workers. Still going strong.
The only possible issue with the 6.0 might be the new EGR valve that spits back unburnt crap back into the intake.. There is a possibility of build up over the long haul which is why many 6.0 users have decided to unplug the EGR valve. I'm not sure yet if I will do that.. but I will monitor the intake for build up.
The only possible issue with the 6.0 might be the new EGR valve that spits back unburnt crap back into the intake.. There is a possibility of build up over the long haul which is why many 6.0 users have decided to unplug the EGR valve. I'm not sure yet if I will do that.. but I will monitor the intake for build up.
Quick_lude
I am a big believer in starting up and letting idle for a few minute (to get piston expansion) and then driving as easy as possible. I have a Aux. Idle Controller AIC and it steps the idle up to 1,200 RPMs whenever vehicle is in park and e-brake is set. The problem with extended idling in diesels is wet stacking and it only really happens when engine is cold (below 300 degrees or so). I personnally do not believe in shutting down a diesel unless I am going to be there awhile, that is why I got the AIC. I do not totally agree with the guy that said about conditions that get engine hot, but extended highway speeds get the turbo hot from extended use.
TasMan
I am a big believer in starting up and letting idle for a few minute (to get piston expansion) and then driving as easy as possible. I have a Aux. Idle Controller AIC and it steps the idle up to 1,200 RPMs whenever vehicle is in park and e-brake is set. The problem with extended idling in diesels is wet stacking and it only really happens when engine is cold (below 300 degrees or so). I personnally do not believe in shutting down a diesel unless I am going to be there awhile, that is why I got the AIC. I do not totally agree with the guy that said about conditions that get engine hot, but extended highway speeds get the turbo hot from extended use.
TasMan
The turbo on these trucks will not go excessively hot unless you modify it with chips, bigger exhaust and such. If you do any mods then I would definitely recommned getting a boost and pyro gauge. On the diesel stop there is a page I read where they tested a stock F350 towing and driving hard. The turbo never went into any extreme temp. The cool down is important, I went synthetic because of my turbo and the fact that I tow. Enjoy the truck.
Well, here is the drill for my drivers running Peterbilt "Classic" and Peterbilt 387 Aero tractors with Cummins ISX motors:
Above 0 C: Idle 60 secs and drive off
-20 C to 0 C: Idle 2 mins and drive off
-30 C to -20 C: Idle 3 mins and drive off
-40 C to -30 C: Idle 5 mins and drive off
Note also that the tractors are equipped with circulation coolant heaters (1,500 watts) and pan heaters (100 watts). I also use Kussmaul Heavy Duty float chargers on the batteries, as I just hate replacing those huge batteries every 2-3 years.
From about -10 C to 0 C, electrical timers turn on the float chargers and heaters for about 20 mins before starting.
From -20 C to -10 C, the timers turn on the float chargers and heaters for an hour before starting.
Colder than -20 C, especially depending on the wind chill, they're plugged in 24x7.
As far as idle time while loading (Say 20 minutes to 60 minutes), any temp warmer than -10 C and the driver shuts down. Colder than that and the Cummins PowerSpec software can finetune the idle time.
Note that Cummins PowerSpec and most other electronic HD diesel engine control software has a shutdown bypass if a temp of -10 C to -20 C or colder is experienced. They also don't want to see you do extreme cold starts and shutdowns.
I'm glad my fleet is sold. I won't have to worry about these issues beyond the end of March.
You will discover in a cold climate that the "cost" of running the circulation block heater and pan heater is nothing compared to vastly increased engine wear without it. The motors also start instantly, even at -40.
Some beauts penny-pinch and refuse to plug in until -20 or colder, thinking they're "saving" money. They just poke the Ether button and crank the bejeezus out of it. Darwin had these folks in mind.
Even though Ontario Hydro, and especially Ontario Hydro Power Generation, is deeply in debt (Revealed this week they need +$40 billion or belly up), I doubt the electricity cost to run the heaters would even fractionally approach the cost of repairs by not using the heaters.
None of my fleet is used in stop-n-go, but that is VERY hard on a diesel motor. If you have an exhaust pyrometer, especially one that can log or save data, you will discover that even under fairly heavy loads, as long as you're on flat terrain at constant speed, the turbo is under very light boost.
In stop-n-go, you're always into the accelerator: race from traffic light to traffic light. The turbo is usually running close to the wastegate setting. I hope the Ford turbo is water cooled?
So if you're in PUD service, you're stopping while the turbo is still spinning fairly fast. If you then shutdown for 1-2 minutes, then restart and race off, you won't get much life out of the turbo OR the motor. I've seen some diesel motors in such service and they don't last long.
A dead idle is bad too. Kussmaul makes an idle box that runs the motor at 1,000-1,500 RPM. I would suggest in such service, leaving the motor running at an RPM that minimises condensation and keeps coolant flow/oil pressure up.
You need common sense too. Any possibility of somebody hopping in and driving off? The liability in such a case could be severe. Are there any city laws that prohibit such practice??
As far as a HDEO, in temps colder than -30 C the "new" Delvac 1 is quite thick. Esso XD-3 0W-30 or Esso XD-3 0W-40 will provide FAR better cold start lubrication, especially in temps colder than -30 C. Mississauga did get quite cold this winter, didn't it?
BTW: the local Ford Chassis ambulances with PowerStroke around here used by the Health Authority are pretty beat up after 2-3 years. Most of them leave a noticeable blue trail behind them. The nature of that work is VERY hard on the motor.
Jerry
Above 0 C: Idle 60 secs and drive off
-20 C to 0 C: Idle 2 mins and drive off
-30 C to -20 C: Idle 3 mins and drive off
-40 C to -30 C: Idle 5 mins and drive off
Note also that the tractors are equipped with circulation coolant heaters (1,500 watts) and pan heaters (100 watts). I also use Kussmaul Heavy Duty float chargers on the batteries, as I just hate replacing those huge batteries every 2-3 years.
From about -10 C to 0 C, electrical timers turn on the float chargers and heaters for about 20 mins before starting.
From -20 C to -10 C, the timers turn on the float chargers and heaters for an hour before starting.
Colder than -20 C, especially depending on the wind chill, they're plugged in 24x7.
As far as idle time while loading (Say 20 minutes to 60 minutes), any temp warmer than -10 C and the driver shuts down. Colder than that and the Cummins PowerSpec software can finetune the idle time.
Note that Cummins PowerSpec and most other electronic HD diesel engine control software has a shutdown bypass if a temp of -10 C to -20 C or colder is experienced. They also don't want to see you do extreme cold starts and shutdowns.
I'm glad my fleet is sold. I won't have to worry about these issues beyond the end of March.
You will discover in a cold climate that the "cost" of running the circulation block heater and pan heater is nothing compared to vastly increased engine wear without it. The motors also start instantly, even at -40.
Some beauts penny-pinch and refuse to plug in until -20 or colder, thinking they're "saving" money. They just poke the Ether button and crank the bejeezus out of it. Darwin had these folks in mind.
Even though Ontario Hydro, and especially Ontario Hydro Power Generation, is deeply in debt (Revealed this week they need +$40 billion or belly up), I doubt the electricity cost to run the heaters would even fractionally approach the cost of repairs by not using the heaters.
None of my fleet is used in stop-n-go, but that is VERY hard on a diesel motor. If you have an exhaust pyrometer, especially one that can log or save data, you will discover that even under fairly heavy loads, as long as you're on flat terrain at constant speed, the turbo is under very light boost.
In stop-n-go, you're always into the accelerator: race from traffic light to traffic light. The turbo is usually running close to the wastegate setting. I hope the Ford turbo is water cooled?
So if you're in PUD service, you're stopping while the turbo is still spinning fairly fast. If you then shutdown for 1-2 minutes, then restart and race off, you won't get much life out of the turbo OR the motor. I've seen some diesel motors in such service and they don't last long.
A dead idle is bad too. Kussmaul makes an idle box that runs the motor at 1,000-1,500 RPM. I would suggest in such service, leaving the motor running at an RPM that minimises condensation and keeps coolant flow/oil pressure up.
You need common sense too. Any possibility of somebody hopping in and driving off? The liability in such a case could be severe. Are there any city laws that prohibit such practice??
As far as a HDEO, in temps colder than -30 C the "new" Delvac 1 is quite thick. Esso XD-3 0W-30 or Esso XD-3 0W-40 will provide FAR better cold start lubrication, especially in temps colder than -30 C. Mississauga did get quite cold this winter, didn't it?
BTW: the local Ford Chassis ambulances with PowerStroke around here used by the Health Authority are pretty beat up after 2-3 years. Most of them leave a noticeable blue trail behind them. The nature of that work is VERY hard on the motor.
Jerry
My loading times usually are not longer than 5-10 mins.. and mostly in the 5min range.. so I'm leaning towards leaving the truck idling since I just finished a hard run of stop and go.
What is PUD?
At work I setup 4x4 directional signs at various intersections, so basically I drive from spot to spot, stop, unload a few signs, set them up and drive to the next stop. The unloadin/setup doesn't take long, maybe 30sec-1min.. but when I load up 20-40 signs at the storage spot, that's when it takes 5 -10 min.
What is PUD?
At work I setup 4x4 directional signs at various intersections, so basically I drive from spot to spot, stop, unload a few signs, set them up and drive to the next stop. The unloadin/setup doesn't take long, maybe 30sec-1min.. but when I load up 20-40 signs at the storage spot, that's when it takes 5 -10 min.
I wouldn't deign to argue with Doug or Jerry, especially as in my stint with OTR (long-haul and regional) service managers, company representatives, plenty of service articles and the like all recommended 30-60 seconds of idle time (was mostly out of cold climates) before pulling out. And to take it easy to let the differentials, bearings, etc come up to op-temp gently if at all possible. In other words, run down the service road a few miles at reduced speed, keep it down on the Interstate for a good while, then ease it on up to regular speed. (Good way to wake up, too, as many service roads haven't got shoulders).
As I was your typical OTR driver in a typical OTR rig (electronic engine, but no separate sleeper HVAC system), idling all night was a given if any sleep was to be expected. The single recommendation here was (from same sources) to use the high idle feature to keep oil pressure up.
Given the choice, I wouldn't ever idle an engine, gas or diesel, if appropriate add-on accessories can be fitted. Short of that, a high-idle switch (as my gas Cherokee will likely receive soon -- an export-only item on this vehicle.)
Idling does nasty things to oil, thus to rings and bearings, thus to engine reliability/durability. The best oil or fuel won't prevent it.
Jerry's comment on liability issues is worth going over with the insurance agent. He is likely to have access to a database giving the "penalty" paid by those who lost the call.
Now that the majors (in conniving with the government) have pretty well driven the ordinary owner-operator out of competition -- and with fuel prices being the way they are (and will continue to be manipulated without real cause by the energy monopoly) -- insurance costs are make or break. I've a friend been in that business for thirty-years, and he doesn't see a let-up yet for rates raised since the stock market decline of several years ago.
[ March 25, 2004, 01:12 AM: Message edited by: TheTanSedan ]
As I was your typical OTR driver in a typical OTR rig (electronic engine, but no separate sleeper HVAC system), idling all night was a given if any sleep was to be expected. The single recommendation here was (from same sources) to use the high idle feature to keep oil pressure up.
Given the choice, I wouldn't ever idle an engine, gas or diesel, if appropriate add-on accessories can be fitted. Short of that, a high-idle switch (as my gas Cherokee will likely receive soon -- an export-only item on this vehicle.)
Idling does nasty things to oil, thus to rings and bearings, thus to engine reliability/durability. The best oil or fuel won't prevent it.
Jerry's comment on liability issues is worth going over with the insurance agent. He is likely to have access to a database giving the "penalty" paid by those who lost the call.
Now that the majors (in conniving with the government) have pretty well driven the ordinary owner-operator out of competition -- and with fuel prices being the way they are (and will continue to be manipulated without real cause by the energy monopoly) -- insurance costs are make or break. I've a friend been in that business for thirty-years, and he doesn't see a let-up yet for rates raised since the stock market decline of several years ago.
[ March 25, 2004, 01:12 AM: Message edited by: TheTanSedan ]
Hi,
The Tan Sedan - you sure got it right!
Another thing that people forget is that with modern heavy diesels, the ECM can be tuned to specific fleet requirements such as;
progressive gear up changes when cold,
fan on as a brake,
monitor time % in various upper gears,
idle time,
high idle position,
and many other engine management practices some of which can be set via a notebook PC
Regards
Doug
The Tan Sedan - you sure got it right!
Another thing that people forget is that with modern heavy diesels, the ECM can be tuned to specific fleet requirements such as;
progressive gear up changes when cold,
fan on as a brake,
monitor time % in various upper gears,
idle time,
high idle position,
and many other engine management practices some of which can be set via a notebook PC
Regards
Doug
I'm thinking that's Pick-Up & Delivery... ?
Hi dkcase,
yes you are correct!
Regards
yes you are correct!
Regards
Given good maintenance/usage (NO EXTENDED "DEAD-IDLE" PERIODS!) practices and use of a good oil, you can easily get half again as many miles on an OTR engine.quote:
Originally posted by TexasTDI:
Tell that to the truckers that idle theirs 8 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year and still get 500k miles on an engine using dino oil.
Is it harmful to idle a diesel for extended periods of time even with a high idle setup?
My thinking has always been that a warm engine is much better than a cold engine, so I've tended to think that warm-up time is important, especially in cold weather. Also, I like to idle one to cool it down before shutting down abruptly.
Am I all wet in my thinking, because here is my dilema.
I'm considering getting a diesel pickup (Duramax), but I want it to last for a long time. The truck will be garaged most of the time, or at least plugged in. Most of my driving will be at least 30 miles at a time, much of that being more like 100 miles per trip. I will drive around town some of the time on short trips, but I had figured on adequate warm-up, easy driving until it reached operating temps, and high idling virtually the whole time while running around town.
Will this be really hard on my truck?
My thinking has always been that a warm engine is much better than a cold engine, so I've tended to think that warm-up time is important, especially in cold weather. Also, I like to idle one to cool it down before shutting down abruptly.
Am I all wet in my thinking, because here is my dilema.
I'm considering getting a diesel pickup (Duramax), but I want it to last for a long time. The truck will be garaged most of the time, or at least plugged in. Most of my driving will be at least 30 miles at a time, much of that being more like 100 miles per trip. I will drive around town some of the time on short trips, but I had figured on adequate warm-up, easy driving until it reached operating temps, and high idling virtually the whole time while running around town.
Will this be really hard on my truck?
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