I have switched my Cat 3116 from Rotella 15-40 to Devlac 1300 15-40 after reading on the form how much better it was for cold weather starting. Can anyone tell me the pour points for both oils? I have read different values on the form and wanted to know what they where for sure. I am also thinking of adding 4 litres of devlac 1 5-40 to the mix (20 litre oil pan) when it gets really cold--like -25C to-night. I can not justify running syn. all the time when it costs $30.00 / 4litres in Canada. Will the mix help and is it worth the trouble? Thanks Roger
Devlac 1300 / Devlac 1 Mix
- Thread starter Roger3116
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Hi,
Roger I think you are wasting your money on mixing both these excellent lubricants.
You can easily justify the use of Delvac 1 5w-40 all year round if you do the sums correctly
In my heavy trucks ( DD 60 series 405hp and now 500hp ) I firstly ( nearly 15 years ago )used a mineral oil to the makers OC limit. Then a semi-synthetic to twice the maker's OC limit and now Delvac 1 to nearly seven times their limit - 100kkms ( average over all engines = 90kkms ). All systematically done via UOA of course
We have been using Delvac 1 5w-40 since 1998
The economics for me appeared at four times the maker's limit - Delvac 1 costs about $10 per litre here. You should include labour & filter's costs of course
Delvac 1 is indeed an excellent oil to very low temperatures and at very high temps. too
The benefits for you I suspect would be around the 2 or 3 x maker's OCI recommendation mark. You should consider Donaldson Extended Life oil filters if they are available for that engine. These stay in place for 100kkms on my engines and have done so since 1998
I believe that Shell's Rotella T synthetic 5w-40 is an excellent product too
Regards
Roger I think you are wasting your money on mixing both these excellent lubricants.
You can easily justify the use of Delvac 1 5w-40 all year round if you do the sums correctly
In my heavy trucks ( DD 60 series 405hp and now 500hp ) I firstly ( nearly 15 years ago )used a mineral oil to the makers OC limit. Then a semi-synthetic to twice the maker's OC limit and now Delvac 1 to nearly seven times their limit - 100kkms ( average over all engines = 90kkms ). All systematically done via UOA of course
We have been using Delvac 1 5w-40 since 1998
The economics for me appeared at four times the maker's limit - Delvac 1 costs about $10 per litre here. You should include labour & filter's costs of course
Delvac 1 is indeed an excellent oil to very low temperatures and at very high temps. too
The benefits for you I suspect would be around the 2 or 3 x maker's OCI recommendation mark. You should consider Donaldson Extended Life oil filters if they are available for that engine. These stay in place for 100kkms on my engines and have done so since 1998
I believe that Shell's Rotella T synthetic 5w-40 is an excellent product too
Regards
Originally posted by Doug Hillary:
[QB] Hi,
Roger I think you are wasting your money on mixing both these excellent lubricants.
You can easily justify the use of Delvac 1 5w-40 all year round if you do the sums correctly
DITTO
I just can not get my head around a long oil change interval. I must change it at 15,000 Km. That makes the syn. to expensive. I just want to improve the cold start capabilies. Will mixing do this? What do you think? Thanks Roger
Hi,
if the blend there is the same as in NZ/Australia, Mobil's Delvac 1300 15w40 has a pour point of -36C
Spend the money on Delvac 1 5w-40 and have no fears about going to an OCI of 20kkms+ with a UOA at 15kkms. You will probably get to 30kkms
Regards
if the blend there is the same as in NZ/Australia, Mobil's Delvac 1300 15w40 has a pour point of -36C
Spend the money on Delvac 1 5w-40 and have no fears about going to an OCI of 20kkms+ with a UOA at 15kkms. You will probably get to 30kkms
Regards
I understand your necessity to change the oil on time. Running an extended drain without a confirmation from a UOA is not smart and then you are spending even more money.
Will Cat let you use a 10w30 during winter. This would give you an extra 3 degrees C. of flow. A full synthetic 5W-40 will only give you about a 7 degree C. improvement. Or you could just give in and use Delvac 1 during winter and Delvac 1300 during the summer. That would be my choice.
Will Cat let you use a 10w30 during winter. This would give you an extra 3 degrees C. of flow. A full synthetic 5W-40 will only give you about a 7 degree C. improvement. Or you could just give in and use Delvac 1 during winter and Delvac 1300 during the summer. That would be my choice.
>>>I just can not get my head around a long oil change interval. I must change it at 15,000 Km. That makes the syn. to expensive.
Change your THINKING!--not your oil.
Change your THINKING!--not your oil.
What are you running that Cat 3116 in? PU/D? Line haul?? That will help in my answer.
Cat tech support also will inform you on extending oil drains, though they'll want to use their "own" synthetic 5W-40.
What the heck, price the "Cat" brand synthetic 5W-40 as well.
Cat tech support also will inform you on extending oil drains, though they'll want to use their "own" synthetic 5W-40.
What the heck, price the "Cat" brand synthetic 5W-40 as well.
Actually, most HD diesel equipment makers don't like 5w30 or 10w30. It has to do with HTHS and with kinematic viscosity at 100 C.
I disagree with your statement that a "full synthetic 5W-40 will only give you a 7 C improvement."
According to the Esso Lubricant Products Handbook, the Delvac 5W-40 is safe to -45 C. A 15w40 is safe to -20 C, a 10w30 to -25 C, and a 5w30 to -30 C.
Cost may be an issue. However, I have seen large turbodiesel equipment ruined (Wrecked turbocharger, wiped bearings, sheared oil pump drives) by attempting to start with an oil too thick. You nickle-n-dime at your own expense.
Again, Cat and Mobil both have suggestions for extending oil drains, especially if the motor is still on warranty. Cat also offers their own label 5W-40 synthetic, essentially a rebranded Delvac 1 5W-40.
A big advantage is that the Delvac 1 5W-40 is suitable year round.
Guy, don't worry, I'm still on that trip too. The oil I run I can run out for much much longer than I have and I don't because of FEAR or not knowing or whatever... I have to test things myself! I suggest you do the same.
RUN the DELVAC.
Pull about Four samples at drain at 3-5K, plot these numbers over time with the numbers you see here on the board... then decide if you can go beyone the short drain... If you cant take 5K then just do 3K [buy a case or two]and go for it, at worst case it will not work out, and you spend a LITTLE money... and youre done. BUT if so many people here are right, and youre thinking wrong, this is a good investment and can save a lot of money in the long run...
If youre real scared about it:
Try this...
Do a flush [light one] first perhaps Rx treatement
Then
Run the Oil out one time to 4 or 5 K just because--- perhaps acting like a mechanic says you must do this just because... you don't have to know anything about it other than it is suggested, then
durning the next sample you will more than likely get the results back and can decide if you wanna do another 4-5K or push a LITTLE past that...
Then repeat and repeat, by this time, you will be beyond your current fear level and have created in all likeness a new one!
Go for it and do it ONCE, just ONCE go for an extended drain, many people do this for the life of their cars every year.... I have over 400K by doing something similar! give it a whirl!
I'm with Doug on this issue. Why on EARTH would you play Junior Chemistry and do your own blending? You could actually have a major problem and really do damage. Do NOT try "home grown" blending!
I run Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40 year round in my commercial equipment. Like Doug in the Outback, I have exceptional high temp protection, especially the avoidance of stuck/broken rings and the problem with Top Grove carbon fill.
Like the Detroit's that Doug uses, my Cummins motors have the mandated EPA redesign to reduce particulate emissions. That means the pistons were redesigned by moving the Ring Land MUCH closer to the Crown Land. At first, there were horrendous problems with stuck/broken rings running conventional oils. With Delvac 1, zero problems.
St. Thomas Ontario doesn't anywhere the low temps we do in North West Ontario. Though you've had your thrilling weather this winter, at least according to The Weather Network.
According to my Esso Lubricant Products handbook, here are the ABSOLUTE lowest ambient temps for safe MRV BPT (60,000 cP yield stress) with the following Esso XD-3 grades and Delvac 1:
15W-40 -20 C
10W-30 -25 C
5w30 -30 C
0W-30/0W-40 -40 C
Delvac 1 -45 C
You're by London, right? The Esso dealer there should stock plenty of Delvac 1. Maybe your Esso dealer in St. Thomas also carries plenty of Delvac 1.
What are you running? I would call the Mobil techline and discuss extended oil drains with them. Delvac 1 has MAJOR equipment approval for extended drains, so check with Mobil and in doubt whatever you're running.
Delvac 1 is a superior product and is proven world over. I know a lot of folks suffer from "cognitive dissonance" and have a hard time believing oils can last so long. Well, at one time we also thought the earth was flat.
Once you tell me what you're running, I can give you a much better answer.
I run Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40 year round in my commercial equipment. Like Doug in the Outback, I have exceptional high temp protection, especially the avoidance of stuck/broken rings and the problem with Top Grove carbon fill.
Like the Detroit's that Doug uses, my Cummins motors have the mandated EPA redesign to reduce particulate emissions. That means the pistons were redesigned by moving the Ring Land MUCH closer to the Crown Land. At first, there were horrendous problems with stuck/broken rings running conventional oils. With Delvac 1, zero problems.
St. Thomas Ontario doesn't anywhere the low temps we do in North West Ontario. Though you've had your thrilling weather this winter, at least according to The Weather Network.
According to my Esso Lubricant Products handbook, here are the ABSOLUTE lowest ambient temps for safe MRV BPT (60,000 cP yield stress) with the following Esso XD-3 grades and Delvac 1:
15W-40 -20 C
10W-30 -25 C
5w30 -30 C
0W-30/0W-40 -40 C
Delvac 1 -45 C
You're by London, right? The Esso dealer there should stock plenty of Delvac 1. Maybe your Esso dealer in St. Thomas also carries plenty of Delvac 1.
What are you running? I would call the Mobil techline and discuss extended oil drains with them. Delvac 1 has MAJOR equipment approval for extended drains, so check with Mobil and in doubt whatever you're running.
Delvac 1 is a superior product and is proven world over. I know a lot of folks suffer from "cognitive dissonance" and have a hard time believing oils can last so long. Well, at one time we also thought the earth was flat.
Once you tell me what you're running, I can give you a much better answer.
Patman
Staff member
He could find Delvac 1 at Walmart actually, as the Walmarts in Southern Ontario all carry it for $35 for the 4L jug. Don't you have it at the Walmarts in your area Jerry? What do you pay for Delvac 1 from your supplier?
I'm currently running German Castrol Syntec 0w30 in my LT1 Firebird, however if this oil stops being sold here, Delvac 1 is something I might consider giving a try. My one beef is the 4L jugs though, since my car takes 5L, plus I need to add about 1L of topup every 10 to 12,000km. If only they sold Delvac 1 in singles too (although the market they are catering to doesn't really need 1L bottles I guess)
The nearest Wally World is 2 hour drive from me and they only stock conventional motor oils for cars and LD use. They have no intention of carrying Delvac 1.
I pay around $38 per gallon (3.78 litre) jug. As far as I know, the smallest container is the one gallon jug. Usually folks buy it by the pail or barrel.
I pay around $38 per gallon (3.78 litre) jug. As far as I know, the smallest container is the one gallon jug. Usually folks buy it by the pail or barrel.
I double-checked my Mobil and Esso specs. Right about the Delvac 1 BPT, as my spec sheet on D1 is over a year old, before the reformulation to CI-4.
According to the "new" Delvac 1 5W-40, there are only a couple of test point. CCS is 6,100 cP at -30 C and MRV is 32,000 cP at -35 C.
The data sheet I have for the "old" Delvac 1 5W-40 has the following:
CCS 2,700 cP at -25 C, MRV 17,000 cP at -35 C, MRV BPT -44 C. Clearly, the "new" Delvac 1 is quite a bit heavier at lower temps.
I have no idea what the bottom-limit CCS and MRV numbers are for the "new" Delvac 1 as Mobil suddenly doesn't appear to care about providing us those numbers. Will keep trying Mobil tech support.
Well Mobil, better get with the act or you might start losing customers. I can always switch back to Esso XD-3 you know.
Sorry I still don't agree with your comments. Remember, I'm not talking about "pour point" and have no intention of talking about "pour point."
I have the newly updated Esso XD-3 spec sheet on the screen. There are some interesting points here and I'm not sure if they're test anomolies or real data:
Esso XD-3 5w30:
MRV BPT -39 C
MRV @ -35 C: 32,000 cP
Pour Point : -36 C
I'll call Esso Tech Support and ask about this. I also had been led to believe the MRV BPT couldn't be lower than the "pour point."
Your statement about "all" 5W oils testing the same is not based on factual evidence. The SAE J300 lists "suggested" performance minimums, these can and do change.
I'll use Esso XD-3 as an example again, since unlike Mobil, Esso at least appears willing to share the data with us:
MRV at -35 C:
Esso XD-3 0w30 11,200 cP
Esso XD-3 0W-40 14,900 cP
MRV at -40 C:
Esso XD-3 0w30 22,600 cP
Esso XD-3 0W-40 28,600 cP
MRV BPT:
Esso XD-3 0w30 -46 C
Esso XD-3 0W-40 -45 C
Rated "pour point:"
Esso XD-3 0w30 -48 C
Esso XD-3 0W-40 -48 C
Remember, a lot of folks would assume ALL grades would test the same, for example a 5W-20, 5w30, 5W-40, and 5W-50 should all have the same exact MRV and CCS values. They clearly do not.
According to the "new" Delvac 1 5W-40, there are only a couple of test point. CCS is 6,100 cP at -30 C and MRV is 32,000 cP at -35 C.
The data sheet I have for the "old" Delvac 1 5W-40 has the following:
CCS 2,700 cP at -25 C, MRV 17,000 cP at -35 C, MRV BPT -44 C. Clearly, the "new" Delvac 1 is quite a bit heavier at lower temps.
I have no idea what the bottom-limit CCS and MRV numbers are for the "new" Delvac 1 as Mobil suddenly doesn't appear to care about providing us those numbers. Will keep trying Mobil tech support.
Well Mobil, better get with the act or you might start losing customers. I can always switch back to Esso XD-3 you know.
Sorry I still don't agree with your comments. Remember, I'm not talking about "pour point" and have no intention of talking about "pour point."
I have the newly updated Esso XD-3 spec sheet on the screen. There are some interesting points here and I'm not sure if they're test anomolies or real data:
Esso XD-3 5w30:
MRV BPT -39 C
MRV @ -35 C: 32,000 cP
Pour Point : -36 C
I'll call Esso Tech Support and ask about this. I also had been led to believe the MRV BPT couldn't be lower than the "pour point."
Your statement about "all" 5W oils testing the same is not based on factual evidence. The SAE J300 lists "suggested" performance minimums, these can and do change.
I'll use Esso XD-3 as an example again, since unlike Mobil, Esso at least appears willing to share the data with us:
MRV at -35 C:
Esso XD-3 0w30 11,200 cP
Esso XD-3 0W-40 14,900 cP
MRV at -40 C:
Esso XD-3 0w30 22,600 cP
Esso XD-3 0W-40 28,600 cP
MRV BPT:
Esso XD-3 0w30 -46 C
Esso XD-3 0W-40 -45 C
Rated "pour point:"
Esso XD-3 0w30 -48 C
Esso XD-3 0W-40 -48 C
Remember, a lot of folks would assume ALL grades would test the same, for example a 5W-20, 5w30, 5W-40, and 5W-50 should all have the same exact MRV and CCS values. They clearly do not.
Heyjay,
Delvac 1's pour point spec is -45C. Never have seen an oil with a BPT (Borderline Pumping Temp) that was nearly as low as the pour point. Unfortunately Mobil doesn't list the BPT, MRV, or CCS for Delvac 1. Pour Points have very little relevance. You are definetly not "safe" down to the pour point. At -46C. Delvac 1 will not pour, period, it is similiar to cold candlewax at that temp.
[ January 24, 2004, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: toyvwbenz ]
Have a little problem with your statement from Esso. If 5w30 is only "safe" to -30C. then how could 5W-40 be "safe" to -45C. This makes absolutley no sense. A 5w30 and 5W-40 will have similar cold flow properties, hence the 5W rating.
Well, I had some spare time so I paid a visit to the official Cat website. I was impressed, but much like any commercial HD maker, I did expect a good amount of information. If you have ever visited Allison at www.allisontransmission.com you'll know what I mean.
Anyway, I previously mentioned that engine makers have their own recommendations for oil grades versus ambient temp. My Cummins commercial equipment is this way. The Esso Lubricant Products Handbook attempts to balance these varied recommendations, hence my verbatim quote from their ambient temp versus grade specifications.
From the very informative Cat web site I do have the official Cat specs and they appear quite a bit more conservative than Cummins or the Esso Handbook:
Grade Recommended Ambient Range
15W-40 +15 to +122 F (-9.5 to +50 C)
10W-30 0 to +104 F (-18 to +40 C)
5W-40 synth -22 to +122 F (-30 to +50 C)
0W-30 Arctic -40 to +86 F (-40 to +30 C)
The 0w30 Arctic refers to Cat's own brand or to Esso XD-3 0W-30. As you can see, the synthetic 5W-40 would be the best compromise for Southern Ontario and could be used year round.
There is a substantial difference in recommended ranges from 10w30 to 5W-40, and especially from 10w30 to 0W-30.
Roger, based on Cat's own recommendations, your use of a 15w40 is risky given your recent temps. I would pay the local Esso Bulk dealer a visit and price Esso XD-3 0W-30. Easy to buy in a case of 4x4's (Four jugs of 4 litre capacity).
Jerry
Anyway, I previously mentioned that engine makers have their own recommendations for oil grades versus ambient temp. My Cummins commercial equipment is this way. The Esso Lubricant Products Handbook attempts to balance these varied recommendations, hence my verbatim quote from their ambient temp versus grade specifications.
From the very informative Cat web site I do have the official Cat specs and they appear quite a bit more conservative than Cummins or the Esso Handbook:
Grade Recommended Ambient Range
15W-40 +15 to +122 F (-9.5 to +50 C)
10W-30 0 to +104 F (-18 to +40 C)
5W-40 synth -22 to +122 F (-30 to +50 C)
0W-30 Arctic -40 to +86 F (-40 to +30 C)
The 0w30 Arctic refers to Cat's own brand or to Esso XD-3 0W-30. As you can see, the synthetic 5W-40 would be the best compromise for Southern Ontario and could be used year round.
There is a substantial difference in recommended ranges from 10w30 to 5W-40, and especially from 10w30 to 0W-30.
Roger, based on Cat's own recommendations, your use of a 15w40 is risky given your recent temps. I would pay the local Esso Bulk dealer a visit and price Esso XD-3 0W-30. Easy to buy in a case of 4x4's (Four jugs of 4 litre capacity).
Jerry
My Cummins dealer recommends a cutoff of 0 F on 15w40, -15 F on 10w30, a synthetic 5W-40 or 0W-30/0W-40 in temps colder than that. Pan heater is recommended colder than -45.
I believe Cat has a 15w40 cutoff of +4 F.
Roger3116: if you're uncomfortable with extended oil drain, and don't want the "expense" of a true synthetic, may I recommend the following excellent oil that most loggers around here use?
Esso XD-3 15w40 summer
Esso XD-3 0W-40 or 0w30 winter
I used to use these grades before switching to Delvac 1 about 20 years ago, and they provided excellent results for conventional motor oils. They are substantially cheaper than Delvac 1 and the 0W grades will really help your cold weather use.
Both are HD diesel oils that should exceed what your Cat 3116 requires. There is minimal difference in BPT performance of XD-3 0W-40 and XD-3 0W-30. Perhaps use the 0W-40 to keep the operating temp protection.
I still don't buy the arguement that all 0W, 5W, 10W oils have the same performance. Again using Esso, since they have detailed specs:
CCS at -25 C:
Esso XD-3 5w30 3,100 Poise
Esso Protec Extra 5w30 3,000 Poise
Esso Protec Extra 5W-20 2,150 Poise
CCS at -30 C:
Esso XD-3 5w30 6,000 Poise
Esso Protec Extra 5w30 6,200 Poise
Esso Protec Extra 5W-20 4,470 Poise
MRV at -35 C:
Esso XD-3 5w30 32,000 cP
Esso Protec Extra 5w30 25,000 cP
Esso Protec Extra 5W-20 13,200 cP
MRV at -40 C:
Esso XD-3 5w30 72,600 cP
Esso Protec Extra 5w30 75,400 cP
Esso Protec Extra 5W-20 64,800 cP
You should note that all the regular 5W grades failed the MRV at -40 C. You should also note some dramatic differences in values.
Engines have different designs and some are more sensitive to MRV values than others. Using an oil right down to its MRV BPT can be risky, at least foolish. If you have a pan heater, these problems are eliminated or substantially reduced.
Esso is very conservative in its engineering, so there recommendations for a given ambient temp tend to err on the side of caution. They do a lot of fleet and lab testing and feel these cold temp recommendations give the fewest problems. Unlike most oil companies, Esso Canada is well aware of the effects of cold weather operation.
Jerry
I believe Cat has a 15w40 cutoff of +4 F.
Roger3116: if you're uncomfortable with extended oil drain, and don't want the "expense" of a true synthetic, may I recommend the following excellent oil that most loggers around here use?
Esso XD-3 15w40 summer
Esso XD-3 0W-40 or 0w30 winter
I used to use these grades before switching to Delvac 1 about 20 years ago, and they provided excellent results for conventional motor oils. They are substantially cheaper than Delvac 1 and the 0W grades will really help your cold weather use.
Both are HD diesel oils that should exceed what your Cat 3116 requires. There is minimal difference in BPT performance of XD-3 0W-40 and XD-3 0W-30. Perhaps use the 0W-40 to keep the operating temp protection.
I still don't buy the arguement that all 0W, 5W, 10W oils have the same performance. Again using Esso, since they have detailed specs:
CCS at -25 C:
Esso XD-3 5w30 3,100 Poise
Esso Protec Extra 5w30 3,000 Poise
Esso Protec Extra 5W-20 2,150 Poise
CCS at -30 C:
Esso XD-3 5w30 6,000 Poise
Esso Protec Extra 5w30 6,200 Poise
Esso Protec Extra 5W-20 4,470 Poise
MRV at -35 C:
Esso XD-3 5w30 32,000 cP
Esso Protec Extra 5w30 25,000 cP
Esso Protec Extra 5W-20 13,200 cP
MRV at -40 C:
Esso XD-3 5w30 72,600 cP
Esso Protec Extra 5w30 75,400 cP
Esso Protec Extra 5W-20 64,800 cP
You should note that all the regular 5W grades failed the MRV at -40 C. You should also note some dramatic differences in values.
Engines have different designs and some are more sensitive to MRV values than others. Using an oil right down to its MRV BPT can be risky, at least foolish. If you have a pan heater, these problems are eliminated or substantially reduced.
Esso is very conservative in its engineering, so there recommendations for a given ambient temp tend to err on the side of caution. They do a lot of fleet and lab testing and feel these cold temp recommendations give the fewest problems. Unlike most oil companies, Esso Canada is well aware of the effects of cold weather operation.
Jerry
JHZR2
Staff member
For what its worth, Ive run the 50/50 delvac 1300 delvac 1 mix for the last 20k or so inmy 83 benz turbodiesel (617 engine). I had run delvac 1300 straight and delvac 1 straight.
I hve found that the 50/50 has the same wear numbers as either 100% mix, and provides the better mileage of running straight delvac 1 (27.5-31 mpg vs 26-28.5 mpg on dino delvac) without the high cost of the oil. I thought trhat I was safe from additive clash by using nly mobil diesel oils, but I think Ill just do stright delvac 1 as I dont want to induce additive clash.
JMH
I hve found that the 50/50 has the same wear numbers as either 100% mix, and provides the better mileage of running straight delvac 1 (27.5-31 mpg vs 26-28.5 mpg on dino delvac) without the high cost of the oil. I thought trhat I was safe from additive clash by using nly mobil diesel oils, but I think Ill just do stright delvac 1 as I dont want to induce additive clash.
JMH
OK OK You have just about convinced me to use Delvac 1. What filter would you recommend? I currently use a Fleetguard #LF667 but could use a syn. filter #LF3379 at a much greater cost.( 5x ). Perhaps I should change the conventional filter every 10,000km and run the oil to 30,000km? The last question I have concerns TBN. I assume this is how to judge the life left in the oil when I do a UOA, but my UOA does not show it. I am using Toromont S.O.S. in Toronto Ont. This is the only one I seem to have access to in Canada. Can I use the UOA without the TBN to extend the oil change. Thanks again for all your advice. Roger
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