Deteriorating filters+ Oil By Pass Valve

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Just opened a bunch of filters and really did not find much until I opened a Purilator that had been on my mother-in-laws car for a bit over a year. When I tried to see between the paper pleats the paper just fell off! The paper was done, so I surmised that time got this filter, about 4000 miles. Maybe 6 months should be the max. on a conventional filter. Other filters worth a comment. Saturn/Fram is sad with the cardboard ends.
On a good note, the Honda stock motorcycle is built like a brick, I had to work hard to get into this one. Thick walls and lots of metal! Worth the $12 in my opinion

[ January 04, 2003, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
 
This is why you're better off using an oil filter with a blended or fully synthetic media if the filter is going to stay on there for longer than 3k or longer than 6 months.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Chris:
l I opened a Purilator that had been on my mother-in-laws car for a bit over a year. When I tried to see between the paper pleats the paper just fell off! The paper was done,

Question, did you see any contamination in the media after being on for that long.?

I am slowly coming to the conclusion that oil filters are like a human appendix, pretty much worthless. After cutting open too many over the past year I have yet to see one that captured contamination in the engine. My last two, even with pin head sized particles in the oil drain pan and in the filter casing did not appear at all in the media of the filters. One a K&N and the other a Fram. They did not capture anything!

Seems that unless one is concerned with a drain back valve failure or media falling apart there is no need to change filters on extended drains. They are useless fixtures that may catch and hold a particle large enough to be a catastrophic failure. Maybe!

I do not believe I have read a post on any board which stated that a used filter was opened and contaminated and full under normal usage (no auto rx nor cleaning agent used) just normal driving. (yes, auto rx users claim filters are full of crud the wax particles that rx uses are captured in the media) I feel the oil does all the work and keeps the dirt/wear metals in suspension, filters are a safety net with huge holes in them.

Has anyone cut one open and seen the medial contaminated????????????
 
Spector, I both agree and disagree with what you are saying. I do agree that most filters probably don't even come close to being plugged up, even in extended intervals.

But the part I disagree with is how you are determining this just by looking at it. The human eye cannot see a 40 micron or smaller particle, so there could be a few of them in the filter and you wouldn't know it. Although perhaps a ton of them all bunched together would then be visible. Who knows.
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The world of oil filters is more confusing than anything, since testing them is so expensive that nobody does it. We have to rely on info from the filter manufacturers, which so far is very poor. Most of them won't tell you anything at all, or give out terribly vague specs.
 
Spector,

I find it hard to believe that the premium oil filters do not filter out contaminates to small for you to see with the naked eye. these micronic sized particles are the ones that do the wearing of engine parts. I have found larger particles in oil filters that I would not want circulating through my engine. However, the small particles are imbeded in the media and are not visable to the naked eye. Maybe you should try to back flush a used filter and see what comes out of it. You may need a microscope.
 
quote:

Originally posted by westex39:
Spector,
these micronic sized particles are the ones that do the wearing of engine parts. I have found larger particles in oil filters that I would not want circulating through my engine. However, the small particles are imbeded in the media and are not visable to the naked eye. Maybe you should try to back flush a used filter and see what comes out of it. You may need a microscope.


I hope that you are correct. Excellent idea on the backflush, worth a try. There does seem to be differences of opinion though on what sized particles actually cause wear or is it a build up of 10 micon particles that at a certain point begin to cause where.
 
Spector, you may be right. No real particals that were visable ,just wet paper. May be doing less than they should be, since they really haven't changed much in years. Maybe Patman has a good point on the more recent media. Just seems to me that technology needs to move on quite a bit in this area at an everyday price. My post is also a reminder that the filter can become a threat to the motor over time.
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If I may, I have some points of views on filtering. I know this is going to stir the pot so to speak with many high end filter users but that's the way I like it.

To start with, I have recently been looking into filtration and examining filtration in general.

Here's a basic full flow filter diagram that demonstrates the path flow of oil through an engine. Notice that on the bottom, oil is pumped through the oil pump, which has a pressure(spring) on the bottom, which if too much pressure exists, it diverts it back around to the input side of the pump.

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Now, onto the filter.. In this diagram, notice that the oil travels into the outer side of the media and inside of the filter can. On the bottom, it has a by pass valve spring, common in a lot of filters. Some by passes are on the top but either way, both work on the same principle.

OK, lets look at this... Oil pump produces anywhere from 30-60LBS of oil pressure, depending on pump design,engine,rpm and such. Given this, oil is pumped through to the outer side of the can. Lets say 40lbs of pressure is now on pushing inward on the filter media to go through and be filtered. Can a filter media allow 40lbs of oil pressure to pass through it at once? No, especially ones with higher filter media, which if media filters better, then it would stand to reason, there is more resistance to flow.(I'll prove this point later). Ok, so given that 40lbs of oil pressure can't flow through the media all at once, Now the bypass kicks in..

Lets take a moment to understand just exactly how does this work.. The by pass circuit has a spring calibrated to open between 8-12lbs say. So, if you have 40lbs of pressure on one side of the media(outer in this case) and with the media allowing say 20lbs through at a time(no real idea as to what it is but no way 40) you now have a difference of 20lbs between the inside of the media and the outside. Bingo, you've exceeded the 8-12lb limit thus it has opened. Now, If this was not to happen, that 40lbs of outer pressure pushing against the media, could in fact eventually crush or collapse the media inward. This is why you will see metal insides on filter medias so that it would not allow the media to crush and withstand higher amounts of pressure on the outside incase of a stuck by pass valve.

So, to keep the media from collapsing inward, you want to maintain equal pressure inside as outside. If the filter cannot pass 40lbs of pressure, then how does it keep 40lbs in the inside? The by pass has to stay open.

IMO, there is no way any filter media is going to allow the same amount of oil pressure on the outside into the inside without going into by pass. Filters are in the by pass mode most all the time as oppose to some of the time. Only when the the difference of pressure between the inside and the outside of the media are equal + or - the 8-12lb spring pressure would it be closed which would be intermittently on and off. Only part of the oil being pumped through is actually getting filtered and the rest passes through, and over a period of driving would all the oil eventually get filtered through.

Another point to consider here... The older an engine gets, the more flow is needed. Why? In the diagram, you'll notice that the engine bearing is where oil will meet resistance to flow and this is where pressure is developed to start with. The tighter the bearings, the less flow of oil, the more back pressure is produced on the inside side of the filter media. The older the engine with used bearings, the more clearance between the bearing and crank, the less resistance to flow, the lower the oil pressure on the inner media. So, if the oil pump is producing 40lbs of pressure on the outside of the filter media, but there is less resistance to flow through the bearings, the bigger the difference of oil pressure between the outside and the inside, the more the oil flows through the bypass to maintain equal pressure on the inside and outside media.

I'm going to continue in just a moment with more info about filter media.
 
Bob,

We need actual pressure drop numbers from a filter company. I do not think that there will be a 20 psi drop with warm oil through a filter that is less than fully clogged, but we do need those numbers; my feeling is that the pressure drop will be something on the order of 2 psi.

I have one number--I inquired from Racor about their LFS22825 full flow 6µ spin-on transmission filter. They told me that the pressure drop with warm ATF was 0.25 psi. We need numbers like this for engine oil filters.

Ken

[ January 04, 2003, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: Ken2 ]
 
Now that we covered the basics on how the bypass valve works in a full flow filter... Let's look at somethings I have seen in between a fram filter and a 12.00 mobil 1 filter.

First, I have been looking for a way to determine just how long can a filter last without changing it. Based on oil analysis that I have been running, I have come to several conclusions.

The m1 filter, excellent. Has excellent filter media but also requires more oil pressure to push the oil through the media than fram. Ok, here's how I come to this conclusion.

My last filter change over from m1(which had 4,000 miles on it) to fram was 8,000 miles back. At that time, I placed the m1 filter in a position to drain in my shop and has been there since. Last night, I replaced my fram filter which has 8,200 miles on it. The interesting thing was I could tell that the fram was not allowing oil to pass through because of startup noise. As soon as I had replaced the filter, (with a new identical fram filter) The noise has gone to normal on start ups. So, at this point I would have to say for me, the fram filter will last a good 7,000 miles before replacement is needed. On the other hand, I ignored this noise with the m1 filter a while back and it appeared to show up in the oil analysis as higher levels of wear numbers and my fram analysis show lower.

Ok, now the interesting part. After letting the oil drain in the fram for 1 day, mobil had been at least 2 months draining, I proceeded to cut open the filters. When cutting the m1 filter, Oil spewed out everywhere which showed that it had a can full of oil trapped between the can and the filter media. The fram did not do this. It had completely drained. This indicates to me that it takes more pressure to pass oil through the higher filter media than the lower one of fram.

So which would have better flow through the media? Which would allow more oil to flow through the media and filter? So, question is, is it better to have better flow through a less efficient media or less flow through a higher efficient media? I like flow any-day. This is evident of the different oil analysis, m1 showing higher wear numbers than frams. So, to say that the filters don't do any thing, I'd have to dis agree but it also shows where flow is more important than efficiency in my book.

It takes a good balance of flow and efficiency to get good results, too much of one thing is not always good. As for bypass filtration, I'm not getting into that at this time, different animal all together.

As for picking up particles such as spector asked, I would have to say there may be some, but not as much as many would expect it to be. I believe from looking at this, there is some capturing being done, but very limited.

Here's a couple of pics to show you how m1 filter with 4k miles looked and fram with the cardboard endcap looked after 8,000 miles. There was no noticeable deb-re in either.

This one is the fram with 8k on it. Notice that there is only a small part near the bottom of the filter that is still wet only after 1 day of draining and the rest is dry.
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Notice here the inside has a metal cage to keep it from collapsing. Here is what the end caps looked like after 8k.
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And here is m1's with 4k and after draining for 2 months..Notice how wet it is all the way across. This is an indication of how much oil was retained in-between the filter and the can.
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quote:

Originally posted by Ken2:
Bob,

We need actual pressure drop numbers from a filter company. I do not think that there will be a 20 psi drop with warm oil through a filter that is less than fully clogged, but we do need those numbers; my feeling is that the pressure drop will be something on the order of 2 psi.

I have one number--I inquired from Racor about their LFS22825 full flow 6µ spin-on transmission filter. They told me that the pressure drop with warm ATF was 0.25 psi. We need numbers like this for engine oil filters.

Ken


You cannot get pressure drop numbers on a filter without getting numbers on the pump pressure, rpm's, viscosity, climate temps, etc..,

example, you put 10lbs of pressure through a filter media, and it has a flow rate of 10lbs, then 0 pressure drop, but if you have a 40lb pressure with same 10lb flow rate,now you have a difference of 30lbs.

This is exactly like saying everyone can go 25,000 miles on a oil drain with no regard to other factors involved.

I think my point is, there is no way a filter media is going to allow all of the oil pumps pressure to pass through at one time. It will create a difference in pressure between in and out side of media creating an open valve condition. This is going to be more intense the longer the filter is run, and depending on the higher the quality filter media used.

[ January 04, 2003, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
 
Bob, can you post a pic of the M1 cage? Ideally with backlighting like the Fram cage in your pic above.

You might guess I've been messing with this a little. Hoooope to have something useful soon, and less oil on the floor.
 
quote:

Originally posted by OneQuartLow:
Bob, can you post a pic of the M1 cage? Ideally with backlighting like the Fram cage in your pic above.

You might guess I've been messing with this a little. Hoooope to have something useful soon, and less oil on the floor.


Here' what I got for you on the m1 filter cage.
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Yep, that's like the old one I cut open here. (PureONE's, too). I haven't done any area calculations yet but the M1 holes appear to have much less total area. That would provide more evidence they're intentionally bypassing higher efficiency media, or protecting it from flow. In contrast, the Fram looks like it's been on a racer's weight-savings program. Care to count holes & measure diameters? I've already cleaned up for lunch.
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David
 
Like I've told you before Bob, I think the K&Ns would do much better than the Frams (and pretty much every other filter) in regards to oil flow.
 
I don't know cause I havent got my hands on one. What is the cost US money for a k&n oil filter? So far, It's gonna be kinda hard to beat a fram for flow as it appears to do well according the the wear numbers I have seen. Also, another thing I noticed, cardboard ends or not, they aren't hurt in anyway. Look at the last set of M1 filter pic's I did for david, notice the way the media is "falling apart" after cutting it, frams didn't do that. I'm not convinced that this particular fram filter is all that bad IMO. Granted, it doesn't have a lot of frills or big heavy or elaborate construction and heavy out can, but appears to be doing the job.

Maybe if the k&n is reasonable, I will get one for my 95 1.9l ford escort and try it but first gotta find em.
 
Bob, I think what you're seeing with the "still wet" M1 media is the M1 media's ability to retain oil (like an effecient sponge) versus the Fram's inability to do so. The extra oil that was in the M1 can is a result of the M1 media'a ability to hold the oil (again, like an effecient sponge) rather than its simply preventing the oil from draining out. JMHO
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And I still can't believe you'd use a Fram POS filter.
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Hey.. Hey..who took over my thread and changed my title??!! Oh I guess it was the owner of the site...Bob... thats alright then. But don't ever do this again or I'll...well I'll just watch it morph again and sulk.
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Anyway, is my thinking correct that 1 year is too long for the paper element and 6 months may be max. irregardless of miles?
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Bob, from what I understand the K&Ns are typically about $9 or $10 down there, so they are quite costly. But I'd be willing to bet big money that they will far outflow the Frams by a huge margin. The K&Ns are rated at 12-16GPM, while the Purolators are rated at 3-6GPM. I'd be willing to bet the Frams are similar to the Purolators. It's simply not possible for the Frams to flow as well as the K&Ns, considering the type of media the K&N is using (a very high quality blended media) Fram's media is just cheap paper junk for the most part.
 
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