Debunking the ATF-as-an-engine-flush myth

[SamSpade]

I've been trying to find info on debunking the myth of using ATF as an engine flush. The search feature doesn't help much.

Anyone have links to reputable sources/articles to this?

 

[Johnny]

Don't have any links, but let me try to help in simple terms.

ATF is somewhere in the same viscosity as a 5W-20 motor oil. ATF does not have near the detergents in it that a well formulated engine oil has. So, ATF has no more cleaning power (actually less) that a good 5W-20 oil.

Here is where the old tale of cleaning came from. Most of it started back in the 50's when everyone was using low grade single weight oils. The cleaning effect has more to do with viscosity than anything else. Example: Put a big wad of grease in your hand and rub you hands together. Now, pour some 30 weight oil on your hand and rub them together. You will see the oil try to clean the grease. Now, pour some ATF in your hand and you will see a little more cleaning. Now pour some liquid hand cleaner/soap in you had and the cleaning will continue. Now, pour some kind of solvent on you hand, i.e., gasoline, kerosene, etc., and the rest of the grease will come off. The lighter the viscosity of the fluid the better it breaks up the grease. Now granted the liquid soap and solvent have oil/grease cutting agents in them, but the ATF does not.

All ATF is, is a light weight oil with additives in it to make an automatic transmission work.

 

[JHZR2]

Youre right, the search is making it incredibly difficult to find the numerous discussions on this point, which were held a good while back...

Effectively, if you look at the additivs in an ATF, even from the VOA/UOA sections, what you find is that the detergent and dispersant packages are not necessarily as strong or in as high a level as would be found in some PCMOs, and especially in most HDEOs.

Add to that the basestock. It has been said that a group I oil does well for cleaning, but you want something that can solve the junk in the engine. IMO, ARX with an HDEO is about as good as it gets.

JMH

 

[paul246]

I find the best thing to keep an engine clean is to run a couple of OCI's of Redline in whatever viscosity is called for.

 

[JHZR2]

based upon what facts?

 

[Audi Junkie]

It's better than ATF.

 

[mpersell]

an esters are pretty good detergents...Redline has a lot of ester in the baseoil.

 

[bmwtechguy]

I think also that the original pre-1972 formulation of ATF's was using a large percentage of whale oil, which undoubtedly contained some portion of fatty acid esters that were able to keep ATF and the automatics of those days in good shape for longer periods of time. That ATF of those days probably could do some light cleaning due to those esters, especially compared to straight grade oils of the day, mentioned above.

Lubegard has successfully sold chemically modified plant-based ester ATF additives to bring nominal quality petroleum ATF up to previous quality ATF that used the whale oil. Lubegard additives were supported by several OEMS over the years to overcome problems related to poor ATF-only performance.

 

[simple_gifts]

Probably best to just run RL full time....

 

[rg200amp]

Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
Probably best to just run RL full time....


Works for meee

 

[paul246]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
based upon what facts?


I actually do this with old motorcycle engines. I'vd had a look inside the engine first, note how much [censored] is lying in the recesses, especially with non-filter equipped engines that use a centrifugal cleaning system. After a couple of OCI's with Redline the engines are as clean as a whistle. The downside is the Redline always finds where the weak spots are in the older gaskets, so I always change those as well afterward. Wouldn't be a problem on a newer engine, obviously.

 

[Gary Allan]

The myth was also bolstered by GM recommending it as a remedy for lifter noise in an SBC somewhere in the early 70's. It was a viscosity reducer ...not a lifter cleaner. The cause and effect were out of whack in assumed origins.

 

[Rick20]

Esters are not all great cleaners. ARX is a combination of 3 ester groups. Most dominantly a lanolin ester group, hands down the reason for ARX cleaning ability. The other 2 esters a polyol ester and an aliphatic ester are in ARX to provide for a sturdier oil film formation, specialized EP improver, and pourability issues. Just because an oil may be ester based, doesn't make it a great cleaner. I believe that RL is predominantly a polyol ester. More of a temperature stable ester, than a cleaner.

 

[MolaKule]

This is off-topic but,
Quote:
I believe that RL is predominantly a polyol ester. More of a temperature stable ester, than a cleaner.


But which one? I think they use (no proof, just some observations) trimethyl propane (TMP) esters which have more solvency than PE or DIPE.

 

[TallPaul]

Originally Posted By: Rick20
ARX is a combination of 3 ester groups. Most dominantly a lanolin ester group, hands down the reason for ARX cleaning ability.
If it's mostly lanolin, probably would be a good leather conditioner.

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: TallPaul
Originally Posted By: Rick20
ARX is a combination of 3 ester groups. Most dominantly a lanolin ester group, hands down the reason for ARX cleaning ability.
If it's mostly lanolin, probably would be a good leather conditioner.



..and so gentle on your skin ...you're soaking in it (WHAT!) ..oh, sorry ..that's Palmolive

 

[Rick20]

Some years ago now, I recall playing with lanolin esters by themselves. Drpped a piston out the bottom of an old Honda Civic motor. Ring packs were carboned up pretty badly. Through it back up in there and drove the car 200 miles and dropped the same piston and rod back out the bottom. Pretty hard to dispute the visual. Night and day. In 200 miles it wasn't perfect, but what remained was soft and brown, compared to black and as hard as concrete.

Tall Paul, Lanolin esters, not lanolin. Being from midwest, you should know that mink oil is the prefered leather belt treatment.

 

[paul246]

Originally Posted By: Rick20
Esters are not all great cleaners. ARX is a combination of 3 ester groups. Most dominantly a lanolin ester group, hands down the reason for ARX cleaning ability. The other 2 esters a polyol ester and an aliphatic ester are in ARX to provide for a sturdier oil film formation, specialized EP improver, and pourability issues. Just because an oil may be ester based, doesn't make it a great cleaner. I believe that RL is predominantly a polyol ester. More of a temperature stable ester, than a cleaner.


Still, the Redline works. Have seen it with my own eyes, actual results, not theory.

 

[gamefoo21]

3 Quarts of Valvoline Synthetic Atf+4
1 can of Engine Flush(Amsoil Syntehic).
1 oil filter

+ 1 engine at 150,000KM

=

10 Minute run, and you can hear the bypass valve in the oil filter clacking away.

Drain the oil, what went it reddish clear comes out black as tar and stinks like [censored].

Cheap ATF is to Cheap Oil as it is to Expensive Synthetic...

 

[Rick20]

I am not going to argue that Redline oil is likely the top shelf.
However at $8.95 per quart, add tax and a filter and you are looking at a do it your self oil change over 50 bucks. If I owned an Italian sports car, or had big bucks invested in a race car motor, I would likely run it.

But I run a couple of Bow Ties. Instead I spend about 2 buck per quart for Pennsoil yellow bottles and about $5.00 bucks worth of a maintenance dose of ARX and am quite confident that the 3800 series motor and the 4.8 liter will far outlast the rest of the service life of the two units.

Why would I waste a 50 dollar oil change to clean up a motor when I can do it for half that with a full blown cleaning and rinse with ARX. Not that I have dirty motors to start with.

The best high performance racing oil is overkill for daily drivers and can't see the payback on $50.00 oil changes.