Dead Pentastar

[hemioiler]

I gotta agree with this. The idea that we are chasing down an engine with widespread problems is just not the case. There was a report somewhere of a work truck teardown at 600,000 miles showing essentially no wear. Any engine, any mechanical thing, might break. And there might be a production error on a small fraction of these engines, but the fact is that these Pentastars, in any application, respond to proper maintenance, normal driving, with many, many miles of reliable service.

It's just the usual insecure guys having to put down something else to justify their own purchase.

Both the 3.6 and hemi's have been extremely successful engines selling in the multiple millions, both of them stuffed into everything that FCA owns. At that scale/volume you're going to see a lot of problems show up on forums, when measured in terms of percentage of failures they're still very low.

But I tell ya what; if I had known back then when I purchased my truck how much fun I could get reading half the FCA comments on this forum, I might have bought a second one just to level up on it all.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

That's the thing - you hear a lot about Pentastar failures because it's in all of their volume sellers and in pretty much every vehicle FCA/Stellantis made. I have to imagine it's 40% Pentastar, 40% hemi and the rest are 4 cyl or diesels.

 

[IndyFan]

I've read in trade periodicals several times that the Pentastar has among the lowest warranty costs per 100,000 engines of any mass produced, high volume engine sold in the US during it's run. That's precisely why it has lasted so long and they just can't quite bring themselves to kill it. It's a cash cow because it is reliable. And when it does break, it doesn't typically present the cost of a DI turbo engine.

One nice thing, too. If you ever have to replace one out of warranty, they are readily available used with low miles. The guy with the 625k engine in his Promaster decided not to repair it because he picked up a used one with low miles for about $700, IIRC.

There are also several companies out there that do V8 conversions for Jeeps and they probably have warehouses full of VERY low mileage examples.

 

[KrisZ]

This doesn't make any sense to me. Its water cooled. If you told me some other component overheated - like coils or whatever, It would make sense. I can't see airflow around the engine have a meaningful temperature difference on a head gasket.

Am I way off base here? If I am then I learned something today.

Agreed, it’s not the heat.
But something changed for sure between the older Grand Caravan/Town & Country and the Pacifica platforms, and Pacifica owners are starting to report head gasket failures. On the other hand, the rocker failures seem to have been fixed.

However, after doing the rocker arms on my minivan, I’d rather deal with that than the head gasket.

 

[Skippy722]

Agreed, it’s not the heat.
But something changed for sure between the older Grand Caravan/Town & Country and the Pacifica platforms, and Pacifica owners are starting to report head gasket failures. On the other hand, the rocker failures seem to have been fixed.

However, after doing the rocker arms on my minivan, I’d rather deal with that than the head gasket.

Those are PUG 3.6 engines, grand caravans had the regular 3.6 till the end. But PUG’s been around since 2016.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Those are PUG 3.6 engines, grand caravans had the regular 3.6 till the end. But PUG’s been around since 2016.

So what else changed besides the Cam / rocker stuff compared to pre 2016? Anything that would cause head gasket failure?

 

[KrisZ]

Those are PUG 3.6 engines, grand caravans had the regular 3.6 till the end. But PUG’s been around since 2016.

Is that the one with the EGR cooler? I recall StevieC mentioning his Grand Caravan had the EGR cooler, but not sure if that was verified.

 

[QwikKota]

Glad to hear this engine is so reliable. I fought the Wife over purchasing a Wrangler for many years but after having a lemon of a 4Runner I said what the heck? She loves it, 6 speed manual 4 door with soft top.

2010 4Runner (first year of new body style) had the timing cover leak ($4k repair), the alternator went out before 100k miles and the icing on the cake was a leaking evaporator core around the same mileage. I babied that 4.0L and transmission with frequent oil and filter changes. I was very disappointed.

 

[Skippy722]

So what else changed besides the Cam / rocker stuff compared to pre 2016? Anything that would cause head gasket failure?

From my digging, they pretty extensively reworked the block and the heads are different.

Is that the one with the EGR cooler? I recall StevieC mentioning his Grand Caravan had the EGR cooler, but not sure if that was verified.

PUG got cooled EGR, I’m not aware of any prior 3.6 with cooled EGR.

 

[Number_35]

Those are PUG 3.6 engines, grand caravans had the regular 3.6 till the end. But PUG’s been around since 2016.

Interesting! So I did a quick search, which confirms that the Grand Caravan did not get the PUG, but the Pacifica did.

I think these were on Chrysler minivans.net, which is a really good resource.

I think it was @Kira who pointed me to it after I bought our 2007 Grand Caravan a few years ago.

 

[Rygrego]

Video just uploaded. Watch and try to find out what killed it. The filter is full of metal

Worst engines I've ever worked on. That's what happens when an European company buys an American company.

 

[emmett442]

Worst engines I've ever worked on. That's what happens when an European company buys an American company.

This? The worst you've worked on?

You need to get out more!

 

[IndyFan]

Worst engines I've ever worked on. That's what happens when an European company buys an American company.

Those engines were developed by the American engineering staff at FCA and the original concepts came before Diamler came along.

Just pointing out some facts.

 

[Rygrego]

Those engines were developed by the American engineering staff at FCA and the original concepts came before Diamler came along.

Just pointing out some facts.

Concept yes, execution typical European compromise and lack of issue remedies for known problems. FCA/Stellantis has destroyed Chrysler through terrible european management phylosophies.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Concept yes, execution typical European compromise and lack of issue remedies for known problems. FCA/Stellantis has destroyed Chrysler through terrible european management phylosophies.

Chrysler has been mismanaged as long as I have been alive. The list of the mis-managers is long and distinguished and both foreign and domestic.

 

[IndyFan]

Concept yes, execution typical European compromise and lack of issue remedies for known problems. FCA/Stellantis has destroyed Chrysler through terrible european management phylosophies.

That's an interesting opinion. The Pentastar is considered one of the most successful engines in the history of the automotive industry....by both the industry and the industry media. Profit margin, warranty claim cost, failure rate, sheer numbers manufactured, versatility, and by nearly all the measures they consider. My opinion, based on this, is that it will go down in history as a great engine. Maybe one of the greats of all time.

 

[D60]

Does anyone actually like working on the Pentastar in any configuration? I feel like they're a necessary evil because of the sheer numbers, but just building 8 bazillion of something doesn't mean it's good -- it just means it's ubiquitous.

With high rates of cam/lifter issues, I feel like it's just the next Ford 3V.

I own a 3.6 in my '19 JL and I do feel driveability is good but I don't think it's a "great". I don't care what the automotive press says because most writers couldn't change a flat tire.

YMMV

 

[IndyFan]

Does anyone actually like working on the Pentastar in any configuration? I feel like they're a necessary evil because of the sheer numbers, but just building 8 bazillion of something doesn't mean it's good -- it just means it's ubiquitous.

With high rates of cam/lifter issues, I feel like it's just the next Ford 3V.

I own a 3.6 in my '19 JL and I do feel driveability is good but I don't think it's a "great". I don't care what the automotive press says because most writers couldn't change a flat tire.

YMMV

What I like about it is not working on it. I haven't had to do anything to it. That's the beauty of it. But once you get the plumbing off the top of it, it doesn't seem to be any worse than most other modern engines.

And I'm not talking about the automotive press. I'm talking about the automotive industry press, which is VERY different. And its rep among industry insiders....engineers, bean counters (they love it), and others.

And there is a reason they built so many. Because it is a good engine and has had low costs because of low warranty claims and low warranty costs. That's a sign of reliability more than anything else.

As for the failure rate for cams/lifters, do you know the actual rate? What has been reported within industry media is that the overall repair/warranty claim and cost rates are among the lowest in the business for ANY mass produced engine. That tells me that the while the total number might seem high, the actual rate of failure is low.

They are not in business to lose money. And their target is 1% failure rate (any engine repair) at 150,000 miles. From what I've read, this engine easily attained that standard. And by the way, that standard is the norm across the industry. If this engine was not hitting that mark, it would have been addressed and fixed or replaced with another design.

I really don't understand the specifics of why this engine would be harder to work on than other similar engines. I'm genuinely curious because I am not more than a shade tree mechanic. I would think it would have more to do with the vehicle it is in than the engine itself, since DOHC V6 engines are all pretty similar in design and architecture. I'd imagine that any V6 in a minivan would be a bear. Whereas the same engine in a Ram would be much easier.

Just a note, and yes, I know this is anecdotal. I have known or associated with around 200 Jeep owners with Pentastars (all generations) through local clubs. I've not known a single one who experienced a the lifter/cam failure. I've seen a few oil cooler leaks. That's fairly common. And I know of one that was hydro-locked when he went into water up to the windows. Somehow he blames the engine for that. Lol. We tried to explain it to him, but gave up.

 

[svtrit]

What I like about it is not working on it. I haven't had to do anything to it. That's the beauty of it. But once you get the plumbing off the top of it, it doesn't seem to be any worse than most other modern engines.

And I'm not talking about the automotive press. I'm talking about the automotive industry press, which is VERY different. And its rep among industry insiders....engineers, bean counters (they love it), and others.

And there is a reason they built so many. Because it is a good engine and has had low costs because of low warranty claims and low warranty costs. That's a sign of reliability more than anything else.

As for the failure rate for cams/lifters, do you know the actual rate? What has been reported within industry media is that the overall repair/warranty claim and cost rates are among the lowest in the business for ANY mass produced engine. That tells me that the while the total number might seem high, the actual rate of failure is low.

They are not in business to lose money. And their target is 1% failure rate (any engine repair) at 150,000 miles. From what I've read, this engine easily attained that standard. And by the way, that standard is the norm across the industry. If this engine was not hitting that mark, it would have been addressed and fixed or replaced with another design.

I really don't understand the specifics of why this engine would be harder to work on than other similar engines. I'm genuinely curious because I am not more than a shade tree mechanic. I would think it would have more to do with the vehicle it is in than the engine itself, since DOHC V6 engines are all pretty similar in design and architecture. I'd imagine that any V6 in a minivan would be a bear. Whereas the same engine in a Ram would be much easier.

Just a note, and yes, I know this is anecdotal. I have known or associated with around 200 Jeep owners with Pentastars (all generations) through local clubs. I've not known a single one who experienced a the lifter/cam failure. I've seen a few oil cooler leaks. That's fairly common. And I know of one that was hydro-locked when he went into water up to the windows. Somehow he blames the engine for that. Lol. We tried to explain it to him, but gave up.

Because I am a shade tree mechanic, and I am cheap, I needed up opening the top end of my Pentastar 4 times as I did the Rocker repair, and then a Fuel Injector swap. I can have the intake off in a matter of minutes on my Town and Country now. It's not a hard engine to work on in any way, once you have the proper tools. I've done the water pump and timing belt on a Honda 3.5 that was no more difficult or easy than the Pentastar.

My 2020 Wrangler has a small oil drip from the rear of the engine. I'll be pulling the top end off this winter to see if it is the oil cooler. I don't dread that job at all.