D-I-S-S-E-C-T-E-D Fram PH3593 pics

[John K]

kctom - I think the Fram bashing came from the mopar site where the guy began cutting filters open after he had a Fram disintegrate and ruin his engine. There are several stories about Fram filters coming apart and doing damage. So it is not all a beauty contest. I also really liked Fram's antislip coating on their filters but if the potential exists for ruining an engine then I am a former Fram user, no matter what the cost or how well they filter.... just my .02 worth.

John

 

[Grease is the word]

quote:

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Originally posted by kctom:
Grease Is the word

As I said before, when the base plate is pressed onto the filter the center tube is squished pinching the cardboard at each end of the filter forming a seal preventing the "dirty oil" from leak into the filtered oil. You can tell in these pictures that there is pressure exerted, by the end support, onto the cardboard. Can you see the indentation formed? When the engine is operated, the inward pressure on the end support is going to push against the cardboard harder and harder thereby reenforcing the seal. Cardboard has been used for years and years as a gasket material.

Please present some evidence that a good seal is not formed.

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This may or may not be the "greatest" evidence, but for me it says, "why buy Fram?"

My application is the PH5 GM (Mercruiser boats). Here is a PH5 with a flashlight shinning in the opposite end of the canister. The cardboard, paper, whatever you want to call it, is not concentric and light shines through.

If this filter were like the same priced STP S5 (Champion) for $3, it would have a solid metal end (there are no bypass valves on these filters) and the leaf spring would be against a solid metal bottom. There wouldn't be a need for the leaf spring to plug a cardboard hole.

Likewise, on the other end, the nitrile ADV is about 1/16" smaller than the cardboard hole. On the same $3 AC filter, the ADV seals against a solid metal neck.

Also, when I compare these two filters for the same $3 -- STP S5 and Fram HP5: the Fram has 91 sq/in of filter medium and the STP has 163.

For me, it is a no brainer -- questionable seals and far less medium -- I'll take the same priced STP.

[ November 15, 2003, 09:12 PM: Message edited by: Grease is the word ]

 

[TC]

The dramatic pleat spacing variations in the Fram above will not affect performance since each pleat has plenty of open area on each side. That said, such poor spacing is indicative of significant quality control issues in my opinion. In the dozens of opened-filter photos I've viewed, the images above show the worst pleat spacing I've ever seen. Although few filters achieve such a high level of quality, this is the way pleating SHOULD look like:
http://www.ntpog.org/reviews/filters/vic4.jpg

What troubles me most about Frams is the modest number of inlet holes in the center tube. Can these things flow worth a d*rn? Pull out any random non-Fram filter from your garage cabinet and compare it to the Fram inlet tube above. Or compare the Fram tube's hole size and hole count to these Vic (Japanese), Wix, and Amsoil images below, respectively:
http://www.ntpog.org/reviews/filters/honda-jdm8.jpg
http://www.ntpog.org/reviews/filters/napag4.jpg
http://www.ntpog.org/reviews/filters/amsoil2.jpg

The quote below talks about the "old" Fram filters, but it would appear to still apply today if I'm seeing the same hole-to-pleat ratio that "OperaHouseWorks" is referring to:

"The older Frams were very prone to flow damage and were designed to go into bypass early. Every PH series Fram I opened had pleats crushed due to pressure. To prevent damage, they reduced the number of holes in the center tube, didn't stagger them, and didn't waffel the tube to allow oil flow under the pleats. This resulted in one verticle row of holes for every three pleats. The other pleats couldn't drain and filter media was pushed through what holes there were. Often this resulted in holes in the media. I saw this even in a filter that had less than 500 miles on it. Have never seen this in any other make filter." http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/archive/topic/87129.html

[ November 15, 2003, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: TC ]

 

[labman]

Is it possible this forum and others are cutting into Frams sales? For all this Fram is OK stuff, I still can't see paying almost twice the price of a good ST for one, or the same as an AC.

 

[JohnBrowning]

THe reason the tool used is important is due to disturbance. If you are useing a par of snips it is easy to accidently disturb the filter element while cuting, Some filters do not have much space between the can and the pleats. IF you accidently disturb them and are not aware of it you could easily assume that the disturbed pleats were that way from the manufacture!

 

[JohnBrowning]

Zits, Try to find some place that sells Baldwin filters in your area. The Baldwin HPG serries is basicly the same as the AMsoil SDF seriers and will cost you $4.99-$6 dollars per filter. They are better then M1 or X2 filters and are cheaper. The Baldwin HPG's are a true 8 micron filter. All baldwin filters are built tough. Even the standard Baldwin filters are built very sturdy more so then the K&N filters.

 

[GSV]

kctom,

quote:

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I have never seen any evidence that these cardboard endcaps do not work.

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Maybe, but why risk it? There are other choices at the same price or lower.

quote:

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The pressure on the center tube is inward. There is no need for spot welds.

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True, the center tube is actually pretty strong. I crushed it to see what it would take. My point regarding the lack of spot welds fits in with the rest of the filters construction. IMHO, the design goal for this product was to make a filter that has lower production costs than any other.

quote:

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What's wrong with the ADVB valve? Why would the bypass valve not work?

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The ADBV is a cheap rubber component that does not fit against the baseplate nearly as well as some others. Re: the bypass valve I said it probably does work but looks like the rest of the parts in this filter...shoddy.

As you can see I tried my tin snips on this one rather than my dremel tool. I'll stick with the dremel.

The filter was free and I wanted to look at one in person rather than just viewing the photos found elsewhere on the net. I like to see things for myself. I'd encourage everyone to tear auto related things apart and report here. Anyone can interpret these pics as they wish.

[ November 15, 2003, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: GSV ]

 

[GSV]

Disected ?

D-I-S-S-E-C-T-E-D

I F-I-X-E-D it for you,mark

[ November 15, 2003, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: rugerman1 ]

 

[GSV]

kctom,

I do not consider beauty and quality to be synonyms.

The ADBV of a Fram is just a rubber flap as you described it. Other brands like a Wix have a more molded design that seals better. It may not be fair to compare a 6-8 dollar filter's ADBV to a 3 dollar filters, but I recently hacked open 2 Napa Golds and their parts are still fresh in my mind.

Regular Frams might hold up well for the duration of an SAE test but I'm not going to trust one on my engine for 7500 miles. Period.

You are welcome to use them.

Question, you have posted 39 times on this board and every one of your posts are a defence of Fram filters. What's the deal with that?

take care,

PS - Mark/rugerman - thanks for the fix!

 

[kctom]

John

I did an extensive search of the so called Fram disintegration stories. The most famous failure happened to the guy that published the MOPAR site. His filter suffered as crushed center tube. According to the Oil Filter Manufacturers Council, as I refenced above, this is not considered an oil filter failure. This council represents ALL of the filter manufacturers, not just Fram.

I searched the discusson groups and actually found maybe one other supposed report of a Fram disintegrating and this too was a collapsed center tube.

 

[kctom]

GSV

It is my personal campaign to try to bring a little critical thinking to this board. I hate stupidity. Someone cuts a Fram open, with no oil filtration expertise, and they feel competent to determine the quality of an oil filter based on looks alone. Like they even know what they are looking at. Give me a break.

I have used Fram's for many years. When I heard these reports of Fram failures I was very concerned. I searched and searched the intenet and determined that there was no validity to thes stories. I did this for my own peace of mind. I feel like somewhat of an expert.

People forget, that if you are bashing someones product, the burden of proof falls on you. Yet when I defend Fram, people act like I am some type of trouble maker. When you bash someones product, YOU are the trouble maker. Now the world needs trouble makers. But you better be right. The burden is alway on the one making the trouble.

As far as this ADVB valve is concerned, the more flexible the better. It needs to quickly open when it should, yet quickly fall back into place when needed. This seems to call for flexibility. Look very carefully. A Fram's base plate is not flat. It has a ridge in it that supports the ADBV when it is closed. This means that they do not need to make their's nearly as heavy as those that use a flat metal base. Making it heavier would only make it less effective. Granted this is just my observation but it makes as much sense as yours.

 

[geeeman]

FRAM's work. PERIOD.

I think that most of the members here are intelligent enough to make educated decisions regarding their oil and filter purchases. How many people dis-member oil filters? Very few...but those that do have seen the inside of a FRAM compared to many other brands. Crooked, cardboard endcaps, minimal filtering medium, small inlet holes, plastic bypass valves and cheap looking center tubes with few holes DO NOT! indicate high quality to me...but that of course is just MY opinion.

Frams do "work"; I happen to THINK there are other filters that work BETTER!

Where I live (CANADA), a Fram for my car is $5;
a Napa Gold is $ 8.50 (CDN) 3 oil changes a year and that's an extra $ 10 bucks...

For peace of mind, it worth it!

 

[Propflux01]

quote:

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Originally posted by kctom:
GSV

It is my personal campaign to try to bring a little critical thinking to this board. I hate stupidity. Someone cuts a Fram open, with no oil filtration expertise, and they feel competent to determine the quality of an oil filter based on looks alone. Like they even know what they are looking at. Give me a break.
I have used Fram's for many years. When I heard these reports of Fram failures I was very concerned. I searched and searched the intenet and determined that there was no validity to thes stories. I did this for my own peace of mind. I feel like somewhat of an expert.

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So Lets see...You telling us, as what is posted above, That the members of this site cannot determine the quality of a filter based on the various experience that we have here, yet you can get on the internet and look around and consider yourself an 'expert'? give US the break!

 

[GSV]

quote:

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I feel like somewhat of an expert.

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Yeah, we noticed.

[ November 16, 2003, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: GSV ]

 

[geeeman]

EXPERT? ... How about " OPINIONATED "...

To each his own...maybe you could start the "I love FRAM oil filter forum"...

Sorry, I won't be signing up ...

 

[JohnBrowning]

Kctom mentions critical thinking in one of his posts. I think objective thinking might be more important then critical thinking in this case. Critical thinking is basicly thinking verticly and most on this site have that down. I one wanted to compare each ellement of Frams design to a say Chapion labs Superteck series in a critical/verticle fashion then your postion in defense of the Fram design would fail!

I think that you are trying to pass of medocricty(sp) as critical thinking and it is not. Telling some that the design is good enough does not make it equal to better designed filters. Telling someone it is good enough does not increase it's value in the mind of the consumer. Telling someone it is good enough does not make it good enough.

Anytime their is a Fram filter discussion you always pop up in deffense of it. I too find it rather strange that of your 39 posts all of them are in defense of Fram! It makes it appear that you have an agenda!

Seeing how cardboard is chaep and the design is easy enough to copy you would think that everyone would be building filters this way!! What we see though is almost the opposite. Their is almost no one else that builds filters this way!

 

[Grease is the word]

quote:

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Originally posted by kctom:

I have used Fram's for many years. When I heard these reports of Fram failures I was very concerned.

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It could be that you don't want to admit that you could have been using a better product all these years. It's OK. We'll help you through this difficult time.

We could start a Fram 12 step program. "Hi, I'm Grease. I use Fram filters."

I too used Fram's for over 20 years. About 2 years ago I stopped after hearing that they weren't as good as OEM products. Rather than try and justify using Fram's, I accepted that I was suckered by the the "Pay me now, or pay me later" ad campaign. Now I realize that it should be "Pay me now, AND pay me later."

[ November 16, 2003, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: Grease is the word ]

 

[Propflux01]

I Think he's been FRAMINATED!!

 

[Jelly]

Kctom,

Your profile states that you're an engineer, and by the look of your posts, you must be an engineer for Fram.

I try to be as impartial as possible, and with that in mind, there is no way the Fram filter is constructed as well as even the SuperTech filter that sits right besides it on the shelf...

Period.

 

[JohnBrowning]

I too used Fram for many years. I used Fram for many years because as a Tech I was never taught much about oils or oil filters beside general stuff. My Dad used Fram so I had no reason to use anything else. I figured a filters a filter right? Well luckily I am constantly learning. Once I knew how much difference their was from one filter to another it was over for Fram! I also used Castrol products for a long time for the same reason. I ran Syntec when it first came out and um until I found out about the bait and switch they had performed!