Conventional oils and varnish

[Trav]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by wemay
According to Quora...(2016)

https://www.quora.com/Mechanically-what-car-has-the-most-reliable-engine



So Mercedes is in the top 3 for not having failures....

Don't forget it has a 50% greater chance of engine failure than some Japanese econobox. LOL

 

[PeterPolyol]

What constitutes engine "failure" anyway? I love statistics and all, but no one ever really seems to be critical of the criteria.

 

[StevieC]

What's even more comical is the discussion that is taking place via PM between members about this thread and others. I'm not naming names or mentioning what was discussed but clearly there are a lot of folks that don't agree with those claiming varnish is a problem and they are all sharing their experiences with each other too.

No one wants to say anything because of the public beatings that go on in threads like this one should you not agree with the almighty know it all's.

The BITOG you don't see as it were.

 

[Revving2Redline]

Calling in Perry Mason or Matlock to solve the motor oil mystery.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted by StevieC
What's even more comical is the discussion that is taking place via PM between members about this thread and others. I'm not naming names or mentioning what was discussed but clearly there are a lot of folks that don't agree with those claiming varnish is a problem and they are all sharing their experiences with each other too.

No one wants to say anything because of the public beatings that go on in threads like this one should you not agree with the almighty know it all's.

The BITOG you don't see as it were.

The consensus used to be that the Earth was flat to...nearly everyone on the planet experienced what appeared to all practical purposes to be an Earth that was flat.

A circle... of PMs, seeking self affirmation doesn't make facts, just experiences.

 

[StevieC]

PM's explaining varnish they have encountered with no issues and boat loads of German car experiences showing them to be less reliable as it pertains to this thread. But it's ok you'll never believe it Mr. Almighty.
There are lots of other conversations on other threads with views and experiences not shared in the public threads for the same reason though so you aren't alone in your "Almighty" title.

And what makes it a fact? Just because it comes out of your mouth instead of others with first hand experiences that know something else to be true? ... And your posts above proves my point about those fearing the public beatings on the forum as I mentioned.

I on the other hand don't give a #### what you or anyone else thinks (Mods/Admins excluded) and will call it as I see it and have experienced it. Probably why I ended up with so many PM's and added to so many group PM's. It's like a second forum at times.

Enjoy your afternoon it's freezing cold here today with the windchill.

 

[JustN89]

Why don't we all just admit that there's no certainty with anything when it comes to cars?


Is varnish good? Well no, obviously not or else every new car would come pre-varnished like a good piece of furniture.

Is it going to single-handedly bring your engine to an untimely end? Nope, not without owner neglect to some degree or another.

 

[BLND1]

This is the 3rd or 4th thread this week to devolve into a [censored] match. I lurked for years, and only recently started posting, but it's a bunch of familiar usernames.

You are all arguing in black and white while the rest of the world comfortably operates in shades of grey. It couldn't possibly be that certain engines are more prone to varnish related failures, or that unlike a wooden table (one coat or two?) varnish could absolutely be present in almost infinite gradations, which could potentially affect (or not affect) each car, usage, oil choice, and location differently.

You are all likely both right and wrong. It seems that in order to find any smidgen of cool technical information your have to dance around the kindergarten playground fights. Ridiculous.

 

[CR94]

Originally Posted by KrisZ
Where is this engine failure data coming from? ...
Apparently from Europe, likely UK.

 

[JAG]

The claim was made that "varnish won't harm anything". That implies that varnish will never harm anything. It only requires one legitimate case of varnish harming an engine to disprove the claim. I provided one such case earlier in the thread. Therefore the claim is disproven. The disproveness is not undone by cases that support the claim. Stevie, do you agree with this train of reasoning? If not, what about it do you think is incorrect?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by StevieC
What's even more comical is the discussion that is taking place via PM between members about this thread and others. I'm not naming names or mentioning what was discussed but clearly there are a lot of folks that don't agree with those claiming varnish is a problem and they are all sharing their experiences with each other too.

No one wants to say anything because of the public beatings that go on in threads like this one should you not agree with the almighty know it all's.

The BITOG you don't see as it were.

That used to have its own website. Be careful not to invite GHT or you might end up with peen pics.

I personally don't get the allure of creating an echo chamber to shoulder cry over claims that don't stand up to the rigours of public scrutiny, but whatever floats your boat I guess

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by BLND1
This is the 3rd or 4th thread this week to devolve into a [censored] match. I lurked for years, and only recently started posting, but it's a bunch of familiar usernames.

You are all arguing in black and white while the rest of the world comfortably operates in shades of grey. It couldn't possibly be that certain engines are more prone to varnish related failures, or that unlike a wooden table (one coat or two?) varnish could absolutely be present in almost infinite gradations, which could potentially affect (or not affect) each car, usage, oil choice, and location differently.

You are all likely both right and wrong. It seems that in order to find any smidgen of cool technical information your have to dance around the kindergarten playground fights. Ridiculous.


There have been plenty of shades of grey discussed, I covered it in that manner a few times:

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
While engine designs are generally tolerant of a bit of varnish and thus typically asymptomatic, this should not cause one to thus conclude that varnish is harmless. Like many human maladies, the causes of which are well-known, an underlying condition that hasn't manifested into something impactful is still a condition nonetheless.


Originally Posted by OVERKILL
ANY engine design will be affected, at some point, if the varnish build-up is significant enough OR if the varnish build-up is in a location that can cause issues, like with Trav's Honda example. And yes, in that case, I would certainly say it's a design issue, that vulnerability to Joe Average maintenance practices wasn't adequately tested for during development.

Varnish is, at its most fundamental, an undesirable deposit that if allowed to accumulate in volume, will eventually have a measurable impact on the operating characteristics of an engine.


Originally Posted by OVERKILL
The presence of varnish, by virtue of its constituency, is undesirable in an engine. Its impact can range from purely cosmetic at the earliest stages to significant mechanical impairment. The latter generally requires significant neglect to achieve sufficient accumulation. Varnish and sludge accumulation are not irreversible. There are conditions required for it to occur and eliminating those conditions will stop the accumulation process. Frequent changes at that point may actually reduce it.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted by wemay
According to Quora...(2016)

https://www.quora.com/Mechanically-what-car-has-the-most-reliable-engine

Outdated list and likely biased study by a warranty-claim company.

According to Consumer Reports, Audi is now the most reliable European make. It used to be one of the least reliable makes in the past. Lexus and Toyota are the most reliable makes and Volvo is by far the least reliable make.

Code
Rank Change Least Average Most

From Brand Reliable Reliability ReliableÂ

2018 (No. of Models) Model Score Model



1 ↑1 LEXUS (6) IS 78 GX

2 ↓1 TOYOTA (14) Tacoma 76 Prius C

3 ↑9 MAZDA (6) CX-3 69 MX-5 Miata

4 ↑2 SUBARU (6) WRX 65 Crosstrek

5 ↓2 KIA (8) Cadenza 61 Sedona

6 ↑1 INFINITI (4) Q50 61 Q60

7 ↓3 AUDI (6) A3 60 Q5

8 ↓3 BMW (7) X1 58 i3

9 N/A MINIÂ (2) Cooper 57 Countryman

10 — HYUNDAI (5) Ioniq 57 Santa Fe XL

11 ↑2 PORSCHE (3) Cayenne 54 911

12 N/A GENESISÂ (2) G90 52 G80

13 ↑6 ACURA (3) MDX 51 ILX

14 ↓3 NISSAN (11) Versa Note 51 Maxima

15 ↓6 HONDA (9) Clarity 50 Fit

16 — VOLKSWAGEN (8) Atlas 47 Passat

17 ↓3 MERCEDES-BENZ (7) E-Class 47 GLS

18 ↓3 FORD (11) Mustang 45 Taurus

19 ↓11 BUICK (5) Enclave 44 Encore

20 ↑2 LINCOLN (4) MKZ 43 Continental

21 ↑3 DODGE (5) Journey 40 Charger

22 ↓2 JEEP (4) Compass 40 Renegade

23 ↓5 CHEVROLET (16) Traverse 39 Impala

24 ↓7 CHRYSLER (2) Pacifica 38 300

25 ↑1 GMC (8) Sierra 2500 HD 37 Yukon

26 ↓1 RAM (3) 3500 34 2500

27 ↓6 TESLA (3) Model X 32 Model 3

28 ↓1 CADILLAC (6) ATS 32 XTS

29 ↓6 VOLVO (3) S90 22 XC60



Note: NA indicates the brand was not ranked last year. — indicates the ranking is unchanged from last year.
https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/who-makes-the-most-reliable-cars/

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted by Trav
Why would it bother me? I get paid when I work on any car or engine. You seem to be the one dead set on bashing anything you don't like and choose to ignore the fact that 3 Euro cars are in the top 5.
I thought you signed a non disclosure agreement but I can find it if I google.

Yeah okay.

German cars are not reliable average reliability is an accomplishment. Why can't you accept this?

 

[ekpolk]

Coming back to the specific topic, IMO, varnish may or may not be harmful, depending entirely upon the specific case at hand.

My single data point: the 04 Prius I just retired had light varnish from Day 1 (with me). I got it CPO with 15k miles in 06. At delivery, it had light varnish (what I could see via the fill opening -- better than many cars). It appeared similar to the varnish in Steve's first picture. 200k miles later, with various syns (GC early, then M1) and two ARX treatments, it looked ESSENTIALLY THE SAME. And the engine consumed no oil, except during a recent experiment using a 0w-30 (AFE) instead of its usual EP 5w30. No consumption with the EP. Go figure...

So, though I HATE looking at the stuff, it didn't seem to cause my car detectable harm. NOT a scientific conclusion at all. I never even removed the valve cover.

Incidentally, the retirement was "forced" for non-engine issues...

 

[Trav]

Simple, look at the list that was posted above. Go to another country and the list will be completely different. None of these list appear to describe what is an engine failure, total failure of the top or bottom end or a defective vacuum hose, loose clamp, etc.
IF they were less reliable what does that mean to me especially as they age and are out of warranty? More work and more income but that doesn't seem to be the case, none have been worse than my own Ford Expedition or GMC Yukon Denali XL, None have rusted out as bad as some of the other cars either.

 

[Shannow]

Ed, welcome back...it seems like forever....

 

[ekpolk]

Great to be back -- it was was waaaaay too long.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by ekpolk
Great to be back -- it was was waaaaay too long.


Sure was! Good to see you around again

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by JAG
The claim was made that "varnish won't harm anything". That implies that varnish will never harm anything. It only requires one legitimate case of varnish harming an engine to disprove the claim. I provided one such case earlier in the thread. Therefore the claim is disproven. The disproveness is not undone by cases that support the claim. Stevie, do you agree with this train of reasoning? If not, what about it do you think is incorrect?

And I explained that those that have issue are poor engine/component designs because the vast majority do not. Other members here with similar experiences also backed that up.
Folks in your camp accused me of "Walking back" on what I said and I clarified it further.

So keep posting and I'll keep digging my heels in, no problem.