Conventional oils and varnish

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I have been banned before temporarily and long-term (it's no secret) and I haven't repeated anything to my knowledge that would place me in that category again. If a mod/admin feels my conduct is not suited I will be more than happy to comply with their requests as it's their discretion and their rules. Until then I'm going to engage in any post that is aimed toward me in an attempt to beat me into submission which isn't going to happen. Especially when other members posting similar aren't being jumped all over systematically all the time in the same manner. Sorry.

And remember none of my posts would have been there if it weren't for this certain group because they don't agree with my posts or the wording I used or the fact that it's Monday.
But that's ok. They will either wear themselves out or they will find themselves banned. Certainly I have the right to respond within the limits the mods/Admins set.
 
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All the oils today are blends that are labeled conventional so non issue if you believe oil caused "varnish ". I only run conventional if spec for it otherwise synthetic. Biggest thing is engines are run cleaner and hotter than a decade or so ago as well as oil has matured and changing. Just go with recommendations of manufacturers as oils today will give you a long life auto.
 
Originally Posted by passgas55
What damage is done to an engine if you use conventional oil and you get some varnish in your engine? I posted a while back on another forum
that I have no problem doing 10k mils oil changes running Chevron Supreme 10/30 in a 2007 4.3v6 chevy. Seems like I was going to kill my engine because
I will have varnish in my engine. If the engine sludged up I can see the problem but some varnish so what?

Sequence VG has a varnish test and is required for all API SN/SM/SJ/SL oils unless they are dual-rated HDEO oils (CJ-4, CK-4, CI-4, etc.). So, as long as you avoid HDEOs -- even if they are dual Sx-rated -- you will be fine as far as varnish is concerned.
 
Trav said:
Happy birthday Trav!
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Click to expand...
 
"Varnish is the precursor to sludge. It is a sticky layer of precipitate that indicates that the contaminant carrying capacity of the lubricant was exceeded"

Saturated oils ("synthetic") have very low contaminant carrying capacity.

Just use a Group II straight 30 and be done with it.
 
Originally Posted by ChemLabNL
"Varnish is the precursor to sludge. It is a sticky layer of precipitate that indicates that the contaminant carrying capacity of the lubricant was exceeded"

Saturated oils ("synthetic") have very low contaminant carrying capacity.

Just use a Group II straight 30 and be done with it.


Comically, there was an entire discussion about this factoid started by Shannow some time back that pretty much ended just as you stated. If you want an oil that holds contaminants, you don't want Group 3, PAO...etc. And if you are trying to clean up deposits already laid down? it needs to be changed frequently because of the limits of capacity.
 
Originally Posted by ChemLabNL
"Varnish is the precursor to sludge. It is a sticky layer of precipitate that indicates that the contaminant carrying capacity of the lubricant was exceeded"

Saturated oils ("synthetic") have very low contaminant carrying capacity.

Just use a Group II straight 30 and be done with it.

There is truth to this. If you look at the picture of Page 344 at this post, PAO barely met the minimum 9.0 merits in the varnish test and GTL only scored slightly higher with 9.5 merits:

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...es-compared-to-gtl-pennz-pup#Post4977627
 
I always get a chuckle when I hear "I use synthetic oil to keep my engine clean and to extend oil changes". PAO is one of the worst.

You want to clean your engine, then use Pennzoil SAE 30.
Even with modern SN oil, I would not use it in much less than 15F temps.
 
This may come as a shock to some, but while less likely, varnish can still build up in engines using synthetic oil. Synthetic is not the cure all for everything. While it does run a lot cleaner, it's not an absolute cure all. PYB is hard to beat in the cleaning department, using that at 5k intervals and your engine will be spotless for thousands of miles.
 
Originally Posted by StevieC

And remember none of my posts would have been there if it weren't for this certain group because they don't agree with my posts or the wording I used or the fact that it's Monday.
But that's ok. They will either wear themselves out or they will find themselves banned. Certainly I have the right to respond within the limits the mods/Admins set.


https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/216/Galileo-Fallacy

Because people say you are wrong, over repeatedly incorrect statements doesn't make you Galileo...*there, I spelled it out to you this time rather than having you react to something that you didn't read/understand).

Note your own
"varnish is harmless"...and your backing down on that statement to "generally", while simultaneously getting your back up, and aggressive.

It's the same old same old rinse and repeat...and blame others for the devolution.

(BTW, this is my first post, so you can't accuse me of derailing yet another thread that you've derailed)
 
Originally Posted by jongies3
This may come as a shock to some, but while less likely, varnish can still build up in engines using synthetic oil. Synthetic is not the cure all for everything. While it does run a lot cleaner, it's not an absolute cure all. PYB is hard to beat in the cleaning department, using that at 5k intervals and your engine will be spotless for thousands of miles.


Of course it can...
The Group 1 oils, although they oxidised, also had the molecular structure that enabled them to hold more varnish in suspension.
As the oils became more saturated, less double bonds and cyclics so to speak, their oxidation stability improved markedly, but their ability to keep that varnish in suspension declined also...in industry, that caused us a LOT of problems.

The better the oil basestock (e.g. GrII+ and GrIII), the less easy it is to work out where the oil is in it's life RBOT and RULER show great life remaining, then one day you open it up, thinking it's all OK, and varnish has coated everything.

And far from being absolutely harmless...it causes problems where there are control systems and hydraulics...varnish in a stovebolt 6 means literally nothing. The wearing surfaces are swept clean, the game goes on...if you have control mechanisms that rely on hydraulics, clearances and coefficients of friction, the varnish IS of concern.

Part of the problem is that the location of causation isn't the location of deposition.

Varnish is formed, and is soluble in areas of high oil temperature...send it somewhere cooler, and it drops/plates out, and being poler harvests the varnish from the cooler oil that passes over it.

And that's places like rocker boxes and VVT actuators, and lubricant pressurised injectors etc. etc. (oh, and turbine spool valves, causing millions of dollars of damage on occasion).
 
Originally Posted by StevieC
I have been banned before temporarily and long-term (it's no secret) and I haven't repeated anything to my knowledge that would place me in that category again. If a mod/admin feels my conduct is not suited I will be more than happy to comply with their requests as it's their discretion and their rules. Until then I'm going to engage in any post that is aimed toward me in an attempt to beat me into submission which isn't going to happen. Especially when other members posting similar aren't being jumped all over systematically all the time in the same manner. Sorry.

And remember none of my posts would have been there if it weren't for this certain group because they don't agree with my posts or the wording I used or the fact that it's Monday.
But that's ok. They will either wear themselves out or they will find themselves banned. Certainly I have the right to respond within the limits the mods/Admins set.

So in other words if you're wrong and proven wrong you won't concede? If so what a perfect waste of time and bandwidth. The truth is that does no one any good, especially you. It's no big deal to admit you're wrong, in fact a lot can be learned from being wrong. Trust me I learned a lot that way in my life. Now back to your regularly scheduled program.................
 
Originally Posted by demarpaint
Originally Posted by StevieC
I have been banned before temporarily and long-term (it's no secret) and I haven't repeated anything to my knowledge that would place me in that category again. If a mod/admin feels my conduct is not suited I will be more than happy to comply with their requests as it's their discretion and their rules. Until then I'm going to engage in any post that is aimed toward me in an attempt to beat me into submission which isn't going to happen. Especially when other members posting similar aren't being jumped all over systematically all the time in the same manner. Sorry.

And remember none of my posts would have been there if it weren't for this certain group because they don't agree with my posts or the wording I used or the fact that it's Monday.
But that's ok. They will either wear themselves out or they will find themselves banned. Certainly I have the right to respond within the limits the mods/Admins set.

So in other words if you're wrong and proven wrong you won't concede? If so what a perfect waste of time and bandwidth. The truth is that does no one any good, especially you. It's no big deal to admit you're wrong, in fact a lot can be learned from being wrong. Trust me I learned a lot that way in my life. Now back to your regularly scheduled program.................


I don't believe myself to be wrong so I'm standing firm on it and we fine to let it go with a difference of opinion except folks like to keep rehashing it hoping I'll change my mind and "see the light". It's fine if I was wrong I have admitted that previous in other threads feel free to check but in this instance from the countless vehicles I have seen with my own eyes with varnish NOTHING has happened and there are far too many for it to be statistically possible to be an anomaly. I've seen far too many engines with turbo's, without, and with heavy amounts of varnish and light amounts of varnish operating just fine as far as one can generally observe from sitting in the vehicle for a test drive or moving it outside etc. with no CEL or anything immediate that indicates a problem and the general feel of how the vehicle is responding.

We have also seen these same vehicles their whole lives with varnish and nothing has happened as I cited some examples above but that doesn't seem to be good enough so I must conform to other users experiences here because they are superior and must be more right than me. But I digress. I updated my signature so there is no misunderstanding where I stand and that others should be concerned because we should all live in fear in case that one type of case that was sited above with a spool valve should rear its ugly head again. You know because all spool valves fail because of varnish. Every OE is having this problem repeatedly on every engine and it has nothing to do with poor design of controlling oil temperatures so that the varnish can affect this sensitive part and this sensitive part wasn't engineered properly with a tolerance in mind that some varnish might occur.

Anyway... Enjoy the thread.
 
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Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by jongies3
This may come as a shock to some, but while less likely, varnish can still build up in engines using synthetic oil. Synthetic is not the cure all for everything. While it does run a lot cleaner, it's not an absolute cure all. PYB is hard to beat in the cleaning department, using that at 5k intervals and your engine will be spotless for thousands of miles.


Of course it can...
The Group 1 oils, although they oxidised, also had the molecular structure that enabled them to hold more varnish in suspension.
As the oils became more saturated, less double bonds and cyclics so to speak, their oxidation stability improved markedly, but their ability to keep that varnish in suspension declined also...in industry, that caused us a LOT of problems.

The better the oil basestock (e.g. GrII+ and GrIII), the less easy it is to work out where the oil is in it's life RBOT and RULER show great life remaining, then one day you open it up, thinking it's all OK, and varnish has coated everything.

And far from being absolutely harmless...it causes problems where there are control systems and hydraulics...varnish in a stovebolt 6 means literally nothing. The wearing surfaces are swept clean, the game goes on...if you have control mechanisms that rely on hydraulics, clearances and coefficients of friction, the varnish IS of concern.

Part of the problem is that the location of causation isn't the location of deposition.

Varnish is formed, and is soluble in areas of high oil temperature...send it somewhere cooler, and it drops/plates out, and being poler harvests the varnish from the cooler oil that passes over it.

And that's places like rocker boxes and VVT actuators, and lubricant pressurised injectors etc. etc. (oh, and turbine spool valves, causing millions of dollars of damage on occasion).





Is this one reason why blenders add a small percentage of esters to syn formulas?
 
Steve day in and day out you type more words here than I speak and my wife says I'm constantly talking . I hope you devot as much time to your family as you do trying to defend yourself here to complete strangers ....€
 
Originally Posted by Kjmack
Steve day in and day out you type more words here than I speak and my wife says I'm constantly talking . I hope you devot as much time to your family as you do trying to defend yourself here to complete strangers ....€

I have lots of time between sales calls and I have internet on the road, my office and at home so I check in frequently throughout the day. I just leave the tab open in my laptop and put it to sleep between periods of work etc. And yes I spend time with my family on top of all that. I'm usually at my folks a couple times a week for dinner to keep tabs on my dad as his health is getting worse by the day. (He sleeps frequently now)
 
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Originally Posted by demarpaint

It's no big deal to admit you're wrong, in fact a lot can be learned from being wrong.

My father told me you will never learn unless you make mistakes. He was right. I've learned more by my mistakes than by doing it right the first time.
 
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