Compact 9mms and trigger action

[mechanicx]

I've been considering a compact 9mm. I think I like the S&W M&P Shield, then there's also the Sig 290. One difference is the action. The Sheild is a striker fire but labeled as a DAO, but the firing pin is not really cocked by the trigger, so it's really closer to a single action. This is where it get confusing. I think I get the gist of the different actions, but it's kind of confusing. The Sig 290 trigger action actually has double action if the round misfires, and I assume a different single action trigger if the slide cycles.

For self defense I know I like the DA/SA with hammer of my Beretta 92, but with compacts it's a different matter and it's hard to decide what's best.

 

[Kuato]

What is DAO and striker fire for us less-gun-educated folks?

 

[Big_Kat]

Originally Posted By: Kuato
What is DAO and striker fire for us less-gun-educated folks?

DAO: Double action only

striker fire: a firing pin with the spring to the rear half of the firing spring.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: Kuato
What is DAO and striker fire for us less-gun-educated folks?

That's part of the problem. Marketing is calling double action only (DAO) what could be considered single action. To me DAO should mean that only the trigger cocks the hammer or striker and not the movement of the slide. A striker uses a spring to propel the firing pin instead of a hammer. But I'm not a gun expert which why I posed the question.

 

[SuperDave456]

Yep, lots of different ways the mechanisms within the actions of a firearm work these days.

All the geometries of different designs, even within the same "family" of firearms, can cause much different behaviors with the feel of their action and trigger pull.

My suggestion is before you buy anything to find a friend who has one, or to try to test fire a rental.

My opinion:
I have a Kel Tec P11 that I carry regularly. It is a small DAO firearm with a really long tough trigger pull. It takes time to get used to it, but it can be done.

I agree that single action firearms, like the 1911, and striker-fired firearms, such as Glock, have nicer trigger pulls that feel better and contribute to accuracy.

But those long tough trigger pulls are not something to shy away from. Much like a revolver it takes time and practice to get used to them.

 

[bradepb]

Striker fired = striker part way back and trigger pulls it the rest of the way and fires.
DA/SA= first shot double action, hammer cocks and next shot is SA
DA only= every shot cocks hammer
Personally , for a carry gun I like a revolver or DAO semiauto like my Sig p250. The triggers are very similar and you get used to one mode of operation.
I like my Glock and would take it to a gunfight over anything else but too many accidental discharges with striker fired weapons for every day carry for me.
That nice crisp short trigger makes for a good shooting weapon but not for something you are going to be sticking inside your pants everyday.I know if it stays in the holster its safe but I sometimes have to remove my gun several times a day IMO

 

[Fleetmon]

I think bradpb has the best answers in here and he makes sense for his selection of a carry arm. Glocks are very nice but, particularly in the hands of a novice, are easily neglegently discharged.

I carry DAO hammer-arms and find when I holster them, keep my thumb over the hammer....this prevents two things; holstering and pushing it out of battery, and keeping pressure on the hammer...if the hammer is trying to move then something is pressing the trigger. Very simple. With a striker-fired arm the only sure way to know the trigger was pressed is when the alarm sounds....."BANG"!

 

[Bill in Utah]

I carry everyday and prefer striker fire and one model that I have in the rotation depending on what I'm wearing has a safety.

But if you remember one of the rules of keeping your finger off the trigger until ready to go that solves quite a few issues.

The LONG trigger of firearms like the Ruger LC9, LRP and Kel-Tecs I'd rather not deal with but sometimes their size means that I take one of those over nothing. The snub nose revolvers normally have a much better trigger than most small semi-autos like above. Esp the LCR!

Bill

 

[supton]

The LCR trigger is pretty good! Long and heavy, but smooth. I just wish they had it in a caliber between 22Mag and 38spl...

One note/quibble: On a DAO you can repeatedly pull the trigger, and it will repeatedly work the hammer. On a revolver the cylinder will keep advancing; on an automatic it will keep trying to fire the same round that is in the chamber. In the automatics this is often referred to as "second strike" capability: if the round fails to fire, you can hit it a second time. [On a revolver it just advances to the next round; pull enough times and you can "try again", I guess.]

Really something of a gimmick, this second strike: if you have a failure to fire, you're probably better off with tap-rack-bang, as I suspect it's more likely to not fire than to fire on the second try. Just my opinion; the only time I shot a DAO automatic one of the rounds did fail to fire, and my first reaction was to pull the trigger again--and it did fire. High primer on a handload, we think.

DAO's are stuck with heavy trigger pulls, although I think they are a bit lighter on the automatics than on the revolver (no cylinder to rotate). A striker can have a heavy pull (on a Glock it is often called a NY trigger, some other states, maybe MA, also require it) but often it's not as bad. And can be set to be very light, albeit still a longer pull as compared to a single action.

Lots of choices out there.

 

[Smoky14]

And just when you think it's clear....enter the HK with LEM trigger group or the DAK.

Try to go with what you shoot the best,a high tech miss is a miss.
That said I love my 1911

 

[Gabe]

Originally Posted By: Smoky14
And just when you think it's clear....enter the HK with LEM trigger group or the DAK.


What is the difference between DAK and DA only??

 

[GenSan]

One of the finest new subcompact 9mm's on the market is the Sig P224. It can be had in either DA/SA(SRT) or DAKellerman. I find Sig's DA/SA short reset trigger to be the one of the best triggers in DA/SA. I have a Sig P220 SAS Gen 2 in DA/SA SRT and a P239 SAS Gen 2 in .40 S&W DA/SA SRT.

My second recommendation would be Beretta's PX4 Subcompact. I have one in .40S&W and it is one of my most accurate (bench tested) semi-auto pistols in stock configuration that I own. The trigger is not as refined as Sig's SRT. It is a little long in DA pull and sometimes the SA pull can be gritty. But it is a fine gun for the money. The ergonomics and pointability are top notch and reliability has been glock-like.

Also check out the CZ 75 Compact. I grew up learning to shoot my Dad's CZ 75 and it is also a fine piece.

 

[Fleetmon]

Nope - wrong.....most DAO do not have second-strike capabilities. Second-strike is not a gimmick but it is also not offered by many....Taurus comes to mind right away and S/S capable is part of their advertisements.

Tap, rack, and bang is great to read about but unless you've been extensively trained to perform it, without fail everytime, then you're dead.

What semi-auto were you using supton because you were obviously using one that was second-strike capable? Keltecs don't work that way. Kahrs, Rugers, etc.

I agree with Smoky14 that 1911's are a great love affair and I certainly love and carry mine (3" and 4-1/4" for carry, 5" for target shooting)but they are not a wise choice for MOST people unless they have handled one extensively. One of the reasons the military got away from the 1911 was it was deemed "complicated" under stress unless carried cocked-and-locked (the way it was designed) AND it didn't hold adequate ammo in some peoples minds. The same for a SAA.....great handguns in their day but there are MUCH better choices for self-defense.

All firearms are good tools and the keys are knowing YOUR firearm inside and out and practice, practice, practice!!!!

 

[supton]

Sig-Sauer. Couldn't tell you beyond 9mm.

Is it really DAO if you have work the slide? Sounds more like a striker. I must be missing something...

 

[Fleetmon]

Keltec is a hammer-fired DAO....the trigger must be reset after the first attempt by racking the slide about 1/4"....same as most, not all though, DAO. I carry Keltecs working around the house; they're inexpensive enough to risk marring and, at least with mine, fire everytime. For mowing, tree cutting,creek clearing, whatever, my P3AT is always with me and most times the matching PF-9 is as well. Dressed up and out on the town, then the Kimber UCII or Defender get to ride along. If my plans call for a majority of standing then my "Frankengun" gets called to duty.

You must have a Sig 290....NICE pistol!

I don't think any of us in here can properly answer the original question though by writing...the OP needs to look the subject matter up for him/herself....as pointed out about the HK and several others...DAK, Para, etc.

 

[OB4x4]

The M&p shield has the best trigger of any sub-compact 9mm I've yet tried.

DAO in a striker fired pistol is actually a DA "trigger pull" not true DA.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
I carry everyday and prefer striker fire and one model that I have in the rotation depending on what I'm wearing has a safety.

But if you remember one of the rules of keeping your finger off the trigger until ready to go that solves quite a few issues.

The LONG trigger of firearms like the Ruger LC9, LRP and Kel-Tecs I'd rather not deal with but sometimes their size means that I take one of those over nothing. The snub nose revolvers normally have a much better trigger than most small semi-autos like above. Esp the LCR!

Bill


I like short, crisp triggers that SA generally give. which is why I'm not thinking revolvers. But I never really carried a gun or had to use one in self defense, so I don't really know what I'd like in regard to safety mechanism (having to flip the safety off) and trigger action. I know some argue that for self defense a double action only longer, heavier tigger is safer, but I never had a problem of accidentally firing a crisp single action trigger when I didn't want to. It just seems to help accuracy and in my thinking accuracy is safety.

It just kind of irks me that striker fired guns are marketed as double action only when the striker is mostly cocked by the slide action and there's no second strike capability.

I guess it comes down to I need to look at and handle the various compact models, and see which one I like the best. I had one little striker fired aoutoloader a long time ago, but it was a cheapie so it didn;t leave a good impression. Otherwise I've only had a DA/SA external hammer autoloader which I like and also revolvers.

I was just wanting to get everyone elses' ideas about concealed caary weapons.