CI 4+ vs CJ 4

[Kevins04DMAX]

After looking around this site and others, it seems that the CI4+ last longer. Is this true. I use RTS and will start going around Walmarts and buying up all the CI4+ I can find if this is true.

Thanks Kevin

 

[MGregoir]

CJ-4 has better base stocks but fewer anti-oxidant and detergent additives so it doesn't like high temperature operation quite as much or perform as well in extended drain situations.

 

[dnewton3]

The TBN is lower in the CJ-4, because it's presumed that it will often be paired up with ULSD fuel, and therefore the lower sulphur content (in the fuel and the oil) requires less acid fighting additives. So, if you use CJ-4 oil with an LSD fuel, you might see the TBN drop to any given level a bit sooner, because it starts lower. But, it's not going to drop into the basement overnight. It's a moderately predictable decline. Rarely does anyone run an oil long enough to deplete the TBN anyway; most people get a bit sqeemish and can't resist the desire to OCI. So while many decry the loss of TBN, it's a non-issue in my mind. If you don't reach the end of the road (a low TBN for your oil), why complain about it?

On the other hand, the CJ-4 typically has more dispersants and detergents (not less) to handle the expected greater soot load from the ever-increasing use of EGR in the newest generation of diesel engines. This would definitely be a plus.

I do agree that typically the base stocks seem to have improved. Most major lubricant producers are claiming moderate to significant wear reduction with the move to CJ-4 oils. Some UOA's are beginning to show this trend.

The new CJ-4 lubes tend to cost a bit more. I don't know if that's due to the increase in base stock quality, or just a result of the economic-policital status we're in today. (Please don't take this as an invitation for a political debate ...)

Perhaps the CI-4+ oils last longer, because people use them longer? It's probably a self-fulfilling prophesy; people percieve that CJ-4 won't last as long (due to lower TBN) so it doesn't get left in as long ...? I'm not sure here. If you accept the concept that the base stocks are better, and the bulk of the additive package hasn't changed much other than lower TBN, then why would the CJ-4 not perform as long? I've read some complaints here on BITOG about CJ-4 oil looking and feeling different after hard use, but I haven't collected enough data yet to say for sure whether or not the CJ-4 does/does not "last as long", but the evidence is mounting slowly. Looks and feel mean little to me; I expect long term data collection and analysis to give the right answer.

Overall - it's my gut feeling that the CJ-4's will do as well, if not better, than the predecessor.

 

[OilGuy]

Read the spider graph, pg 14 of 16. No performance property has been reduced; some are the same, some have tougher requirements.
http://mobildelvac.com/usa-english/files/Mobil_Delvac_1300_Super_brochure.pdf

 

[pickled]

Yes that spider graph is correct, but remember that these levels only bring the "minimum" requirements up further. Think back to high school about the kid who used to say "D" helps to spell diploma and graduated by the skin of his teeth

. I think there is a lot of spin involved with the communication of CJ-4 oil performance. If you own a large fleet and had already optimized your drains on CI-4+ you probably are going to have to adjust your drains. Almost all of my clients, who are a little more sophisticated with historical data than the average owner, have had to dial back their drain intervals due to TBN depletion. Now, to Dnewton3's, point the average joe/jane doesn't perform oil analysis and probably dumps their oil WAY ahead of time anyway...they will, unknowingly, probably realize a benefit from CJ-4 if they have a history of buying some of the low tier oils anyway. It's fun to watch this evolution though that's for darn sure. I can't wait for 2010!!!

 

[dnewton3]

That Mobil info (which is admittedly self-promoting) is very similar to the info I've seen from Castrol Tection Extra and Shell Rotella.

At some point, I have to put some faith in the leading market products and the info that they produce. I'll admit that I'm somewhat skeptical, because I have worked my whole adult life at large companies, and I do understand how they can "spin" things to their advantage. However, you cannot discount the basic info, when several key leading lubricant producers are telling the same basic story. CJ-4 oils are better at soot control, wear protection, TBN retention and oxidation control. Yes, the official API and SAE limits have been upgraded, but some of the leading companies such as Chevron, Mobil, Castrol and Shell all have proven that their CJ-4 oils even go above and beyond the minimum limits.

When someone complains about CJ-4 being not as good as CI-4+, I just don't think there's much merit to that argument. If your ONLY judgement were starting TBN, then clearly the CI-4+'s have an advantage. But ...

Results are what count. No matter where you start, the end results are the most important thing. This is an issue where the end probably justifies the means. All the major brand producers are telling us that they can show significant advantages by moving to CJ-4. Both Shell and Mobil show that while TBN starts lower, the retention rate is greater with CJ-4. So the concern of CJ-4's not "lasting as long" compared to CI-4+ is moot, in that regard.

The OP was basically concerned about buying up all the CI-4 RTS he could find, in an effort to avoid the upcoming CJ-4 RTS. That's fine for him; his opinion is valid within his own scope. That just clears the shelves and makes way for what I percieve to be a better product, regardless of brand; that's my opinion, within my scope.

 

[OilGuy]

The mystery is how the individual CJ-4 oil is designed in regards to just meeting or far exceeding the minimum spec. It's possible an oil could have exceeded CI-4 Plus by a decent margin before, but dialed the performance back with CJ-4, yet still at least meet the performance requirment. We'd have to see other test data to support this.

 

[buster]

Quote:
Because Equipment
Manufacturers are using
varying technologies to
reduce engine emissions,
we installed several low
emission engines at our
world-class research
laboratory. These engines
allowed us to conduct
proprietary and standard
industry test procedures
that help us formulate the
optimal products.

 

[pickled]

I definitely agree with many of your points especially on the results side. I'm just stating that I have conducted numerous validation studies, and have posted some results here on BITOG, where the summary results showed a difference. This is where the CJ-4 brand name for brand name versus its CI-4+ counterpart has had to be removed from service earlier in Class 8 fleets running # 2 ULSD. This statement was valid for a large population of 2007 and newer units as well as pre- 2007 units. Within this same pool of vehicles the wear metals/1,000 miles were not statistically significantly different between the 2 groups up to the depletion of the CJ-4 variant (we didn't push the oils past the point where acidic micro corrosion could occur). Reported soot levels were at parity as well...even in the newer units with extremely high EGR rates.

As far as formula optimizations go I definitely understand that process/concept quite well from my days in the hole. It's tough to ever be truly optimal because an optimum relationship still requires some body of overseers to define the boundaries of what optimal is (quality, cost, manufacturability...etc.). Optimization is a journey for sure not a destination. Anyone who has ever worked with process factorial study inputs and mixture designs at the same time knows what I'm talking about. One thing is for sure the cost was allowed to fluctuate higher on the new formulations...whether that was due to additive package and/or base oil deltas we will not know. I definitely look forward to the next renditions of these CJ formulas, however, because they will only get better and hopefully will help my clients increase their uptime and reduce unplanned labor hours in the shop! C-you folks later I'm taking the jeep up into the mountains for some much needed vacation.

 

[Kevins04DMAX]

DNewton3

Do you think that one could get benefits from mixing 50/50 of the CJ4 and CI4+?

 

[dnewton3]

I suppose there are possibilities, but at what point do you find the "magic" percentage of mixture??? That would entail a whole lot of testing (way beyond the scope of us mere mortals here on BITOG).

Overall, I'm looking forward to the switch to CJ-4, that is, when my huge stash of CI-4+ oils finally run out. I just cannot walk past an oil bargin when I see one.

You know, admitting one has a problem is the first step to recovery ...

 

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I suppose there are possibilities, but at what point do you find the "magic" percentage of mixture??? That would entail a whole lot of testing (way beyond the scope of us mere mortals here on BITOG).

Overall, I'm looking forward to the switch to CJ-4, that is, when my huge stash of CI-4+ oils finally run out. I just cannot walk past an oil bargin when I see one.

You know, admitting one has a problem is the first step to recovery ...




We'll probably be on to the next formulation when my CI4+ stash runs out....sounds like you are in the same situation.

 

[dnewton3]

We must be peas of the same pod.

I believe I have 4 gallons of Rotella 10w30 in CI-4 (notice, it's missing the "+", it's so old). Perhaps 6 gallons of Rotella Synthetic CI-4+. A left over gallon of Tection Extra in 15w40. And a slew of PP, Synpower, Q-Torque, and such, to the tune of around 10 gallons, in 5w30.

There are times I give my oil away to someone close (family or friends) just to move product out of the garage, only to fill it back up again with the next "bargin du jour". If AAP would quit having their BOGO sales, I might actually make some headway.

I am a pathetic oil 'ho.

 

[pickled]

Wow you are an oil ho...don't be given that precious love away!! Let me know if you ever need a pimp...LOL! My stash of CI-4+ is pretty large too. I have 4 gallons of Delo MG, 2 gallons of Rotella, 2 gallons of Delo Syn, 4 gallons of Amsoil AME, 4 gallons Amsoil HDD and 2 gallons of Amsoil ACD all poised to go down a fill tube some day!