Cholesterol Lowering Drugs May Be Harmful

[hatt]

Pretty much everyone over 40 has cardiovascular disease to some degree. Then they go on to put risk of "developing other form of cardiovascular disease in the next 10 years" to include the couple people they missed.

It sounds like you have a pretty good doc that's looking out for your health not simply dispensing pills. Most people don't have docs like that.

 

[VeeDubb]

Originally Posted By: AuthorEditor
Quote:
Everytime I walk into the office, at least 90% of the people are overweight (and not just by a little) and some can barely move without a wheel chair. This is not exactly a demographic that is going to do non-statin lifestyle therapy.

When I went to a cardiologist quite a few years ago for a total false alarm that cost me $thousands I noticed that most of the doctors and nurses looked almost as bad as the patients. I got the distinct impression that they were just going through the motions with most people: prescribe drugs, tell them to stop smoking and start eating better, tell them to start exercising more, and here's your next appointment to come see us for the same advice in a few months.


I think that's a valid point. But when 9 out 10 patients you see just want the easy way out and take the pill rather than work at it, the system becomes an ugly cycle.

Incidently, I wouldn't go to a doc personally who isn't healthy him/herself. That's just my own prejudice. It means he will be clueless about nutrition and lifestyle factors.

 

[VeeDubb]

Originally Posted By: hatt
Pretty much everyone over 40 has cardiovascular disease to some degree. Then they go on to put risk of "developing other form of cardiovascular disease in the next 10 years" to include the couple people they missed.

It sounds like you have a pretty good doc that's looking out for your health not simply dispensing pills. Most people don't have docs like that.


Yeah he is a good doc. He also runs marathons so he has actually personally experienced what diet and exercise can do. A lot of people have only read books about it.

 

[AuthorEditor]

Quote:
Incidently, I wouldn't go to a doc personally who isn't healthy him/herself. That's just my own prejudice. It means he will be clueless about nutrition and lifestyle factors.

I bet the single thing that people could do, but won't, to improve their health would be to get rid of their televisions. Stop watching and start living life!

 

[CKN]

Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: Kuato
I can't see taking my medical advice from YouTube, I let my Doctor do that.
Is your doctor actively doing research in the field you're asking him about? If not he's likely no more educated on a current subject than anyone else who read an article in a medical journal. Or looked at the brochures the beautiful drug rep gave them. If you think all doctors are brilliant minds knowledgeable of everything, you need to talk to my wife. A lot of doctors are dangerous egomaniacs, a lot more ego than sense.



That being said...Doctors know more than the oil changers here on BITOG.

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: CKN
Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: Kuato
I can't see taking my medical advice from YouTube, I let my Doctor do that.
Is your doctor actively doing research in the field you're asking him about? If not he's likely no more educated on a current subject than anyone else who read an article in a medical journal. Or looked at the brochures the beautiful drug rep gave them. If you think all doctors are brilliant minds knowledgeable of everything, you need to talk to my wife. A lot of doctors are dangerous egomaniacs, a lot more ego than sense.



That being said...Doctors know more than the oil changers here on BITOG.
How are you coming to this conclusion? An oil changer that has extensively researched a certain subject will probably be more knowledgeable on that subject than doctors who have read an article or two.

 

[CKN]

Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: CKN
Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: Kuato
I can't see taking my medical advice from YouTube, I let my Doctor do that.
Is your doctor actively doing research in the field you're asking him about? If not he's likely no more educated on a current subject than anyone else who read an article in a medical journal. Or looked at the brochures the beautiful drug rep gave them. If you think all doctors are brilliant minds knowledgeable of everything, you need to talk to my wife. A lot of doctors are dangerous egomaniacs, a lot more ego than sense.



That being said...Doctors know more than the oil changers here on BITOG.
How are you coming to this conclusion? An oil changer that has extensively researched a certain subject will probably be more knowledgeable on that subject than doctors who have read an article or two.


REALLY? We are talking about BITOG mechanics dishing out advice on prescriptions drugs without ever steeping foot in medical school.

 

[GaleHawkins]

Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: CKN
Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: Kuato
I can't see taking my medical advice from YouTube, I let my Doctor do that.
Is your doctor actively doing research in the field you're asking him about? If not he's likely no more educated on a current subject than anyone else who read an article in a medical journal. Or looked at the brochures the beautiful drug rep gave them. If you think all doctors are brilliant minds knowledgeable of everything, you need to talk to my wife. A lot of doctors are dangerous egomaniacs, a lot more ego than sense.



That being said...Doctors know more than the oil changers here on BITOG.
How are you coming to this conclusion? An oil changer that has extensively researched a certain subject will probably be more knowledgeable on that subject than doctors who have read an article or two.


While this is factual it is a hard sell to those that think all doctors are aware and understand what new has happened in their professions for the last 20 years. Yes there are doctors that know more about motor oil than some that post on the subject.

 

[Olas]

You're gong to die anyway. Statins, cancer, workplace accident, old age, Firearms, traffic accident, terrorism, chemtrails, whatever.

For the best chance of reasonably enjoyable survival just eat right and exercise, and accept that when it's your time it's your time.

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: CKN


REALLY? We are talking about BITOG mechanics dishing out advice on prescriptions drugs without ever steeping foot in medical school.
Why do you need to go to medical school to be knowledgeable on medical subjects? The information is in the public domain, anyone can access it if they look around. You act as though doctors spend all day doing research. They don't. The have boat loads of patients to see every day. My wife will be prescribing meds next year and she's never stepped foot in a medical school. #nurselife Every one of the books she's used can be purchased on Amazon.

 

[69GTX]

Elevated LDL is not the major issue. It's oxidized cholesterol that does the damage. So reduce oxidation/oxidants/and inflammation. As simple as that. Everything else follows, along with reduced risk of heart disease, cancers, and auto-immune diseases.

I didn't get my knowledge from the internet. 5 years back, I read several dozen books on nutrition, heart disease, and cancers. All were written by leading doctors/nutritionists. Two excellent books I read were from Guy Daniels, nutritionist and Dr. William Sears. Go ahead and try to wade through the technical aspects of Daniels' treatise on the current state of nutrition and the related studies as of 2012. Sears' Prime Time Health is often carried at Libraries. It's one of the best, easy to read books on overall health and nutrition for anyone, though especially the past-50 crowd. Statins will lower your CoQ10, not a good thing for us older folks. I doubt the medical community has fully researched the affect of that.

There was a common theme among them. And for the most part, it wasn't focusing on cholesterol. Fwiw, my bad numbers plummeted like a rock in only 9 months, LDL was 78, total cholesterol 126-146, HDL 59, triglycerides at 32, chol/LDL 2.47 (HDL 0.75 (ml, HS-CRP
I did a couple years of research trying to get as healthy as a I could and get off all medications. And I did toss the high BP and asthma prescriptions. By end of summer that year I was holding 110-125/70-80 BP w/o meds And it wasn't my job to help educate my primary care physician who was around 60 years old. It was important for me to know they whys and whats. And good luck trying to locate a PCP who is up to date on current nutrition and prevention of disease as well as covered in your health plan. If you're willing to pay out of pocket, then fine. As my PCP is now retiring, his replacement/understudy is in his very early 30's. His focus isn't on any of this stuff...but rather prevention of skin cancers by staying out of the sun (ie keeping your Vit D levels insufficient). Besides the wrong information on cholesterol and sugars, the medical community is just as mucked up when it comes to adequate Vit D from sunshine.

 

[CKN]

Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: CKN


REALLY? We are talking about BITOG mechanics dishing out advice on prescriptions drugs without ever steeping foot in medical school.
Why do you need to go to medical school to be knowledgeable on medical subjects? The information is in the public domain, anyone can access it if they look around. You act as though doctors spend all day doing research. They don't. The have boat loads of patients to see every day. My wife will be prescribing meds next year and she's never stepped foot in a medical school. #nurselife Every one of the books she's used can be purchased on Amazon.



Let's be honest here-I am assuming she will be under a licensed physician-and she has had some formal training. You can't research/buy books at Amazon and walk in to a medical office. Your post is a little disingenuous.

 

[grampi]

What drug isn't bad for you?

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: CKN
Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: CKN


REALLY? We are talking about BITOG mechanics dishing out advice on prescriptions drugs without ever steeping foot in medical school.
Why do you need to go to medical school to be knowledgeable on medical subjects? The information is in the public domain, anyone can access it if they look around. You act as though doctors spend all day doing research. They don't. The have boat loads of patients to see every day. My wife will be prescribing meds next year and she's never stepped foot in a medical school. #nurselife Every one of the books she's used can be purchased on Amazon.



Let's be honest here-I am assuming she will be under a licensed physician-and she has had some formal training. You can't research/buy books at Amazon and walk in to a medical office. Your post is a little disingenuous.
She's in graduate nursing school. She has learned little in school you couldn't have learned yourself with her books. You wouldn't be able to put it into practice effectively without the hands on stuff but you'd have the foundation. Her BSN program was actually a joke. Very little was taught about medicine. It was mostly about activism, community, tolerance, diversity, etc. At least she's now back to learning about medical stuff. You could learn the same material and pass the same state tests by buying books. Learning is how you make yourself more knowledgeable. An organized school is just one way(yes, in many cases the only way if you want to be able to legally practice) to learn.

 

[VeeDubb]

69gtx, while elevated LDL may not be causal, it's presence more often than not indicates that something is wrong. And some statins work by reducing inflammation.

I think of LDL as a canary in the coal mine. If you have it, you need to do something. For example, yours plummeted once you became healthy which means that it is far from a meaningless number.

Btw I applaud you for figuring this out and having the tenacity to get at the root causes. If everyone were like you, we'd be a society with very few chronic illnesses.

Unfortunately, you are the exception not the rule and for the non-outlier population, I am not sure that that the current statins approach is bad.

And I say this as a guy who never has been on or wants statins. But I tell my mom to take hers because she eats like [censored] and refuses to do anything that requires any effort. For her, Id rather she be on them than not.

 

[69GTX]

At medical school you are taught too little on nutrition. I think Daniels mentions med students get a couple weeks and that's it. The emphasis is on treating symptoms and disease, dispensing medications, and elective/required surgery. Prevention of disease is not the priority. So if you want to learn about nutrition or holistic medicine, you have to seek out a nutritionist or do the research yourself, something that probably too few doctors do once they leave med school.

There was an interesting video posted earlier today that seems to be gone. But it was on the cholesterol myth part 1 (see below). In that video cardiologist Dr. Stephen Sinatra, who's book I read on heart health, ranks cholesterol way down the list on heart health issues. In particular this quote at 21:14 is rather telling: "Cholesterol is found at the scene of the crime, it's not the perpetrator." 4 years ago Sinatra was not a fan of statins.

"I feel that the best indication for a statin drug is a middle-aged male with coronary heart disease and a low HDL," he says. "To me this person has the greatest to gain and the least to lose. The problem I have with cholesterol lowering drugs is that they have horrific side effects… If you treat a woman in her 30s just for "high cholesterol," and treating numbers, I think we're doing a disservice… We really shouldn't use them in elderly people. We shouldn't use them in young people, or in women. I have been very disappointed as a clinical cardiologist in the efficacy of statins in women, even with advanced coronary disease."

Cholesterol Myths

As Sinatra suggests, it took several decades to build this cholesterol myth. It will take a few more decades to undo it. Statins will probably go through a similar process. Too bad we don't have UOA's on our bodies to give us immediate feedback on our health, rather than waiting decades to see how things turn out. The Framingham study has been going on since 1948 with over 5,000 people still in the program. Numerous powerful results have come from this. The wheels turn slowly though in govt and Big Pharma controlled medicine. Much of the medical community is still stuck in the 1960's and 1970's when it comes to cholesterol, heart health, and inflammation.

 

[69GTX]

For those that don't want to check out their library or bookstore, here's a 30 min video I found on Sear's Prime Time Health covering the very basics. The books takes a couple of hours to read. Don't know the guy, or even recommend their supplements.... but thought his book was good. I didn't know anything about our Endothelium and how it worked, until I read this...or first read/forget about it back in 8th or 9th grade health class.

Not all stuff on the internet is bogus.....lol.

Prime Time Health

 

[VeeDubb]

Originally Posted By: 69GTX
For those that don't want to check out their library or bookstore, here's a 30 min video I found on Sear's Prime Time Health covering the very basics. The books takes a couple of hours to read. Don't know the guy, or even recommend their supplements.... but thought his book was good. I didn't know anything about our Endothelium and how it worked, until I read this...or first read/forget about it back in 8th or 9th grade health class.

Not all stuff on the internet is bogus.....lol.

Prime Time Health


Most of what he recommends make good sense. I'm a little skeptical of the Juice Plus multilevel marketing supplement but the rest of it is pretty sound.

 

[SteveSRT8]

I have learned that there is good fat and bad fat in our diet. Good fat helps keep arteries pliable and elastic, bad fat helps to build plaques. Too low of a cholesterol level has been linked to stroke.

Red yeast rice is an effective natural statin, since it contains many other ingredients than just lovastatin it seems to be well tolerated by many. Reduced my LDL almost 20% with no other changes across a 90 day trial. YMMV.

A1C level is a critical marker for inflammation. Monitor it and reduce it for many benefits. And remember there is absolutely no proven link between exercise and longer life. None. Your QUALITY of life may be improved, but don't think it's going to save you...

 

[Garak]

Merk, stay away from Youtube.

Basically, there is a lot of good advice here. First off, rely on the physicians. At least they have expertise. Aside from that, of course, all medications can be harmful. Any time that a condition can be deal with without medication, it probably should be dealt with without medication.