Certification vs Recommends

[tiger862]

I will use Ms-6395 as an example. Pennzoil states that it is on its approval or recommend list to call help desk for certification list as well as Quakerstate. Valvoline states only conventional 5w20 or 5w30 is certified but Synthetic is recommended. Mobil website only has one synthetic as certified. These are just an example so my problem with this is when you go to a quick change or to Goodyear they sell 3 levels of oil changes with receipts that aren't certified oils. Now you have a record of recommended oil changes not certified and done on time. Let's say worse case cam lobe wears causing engine light and misfire then your records show not certified oil used so claim denied so now you are left with a bill. Who do you go after as dealer states manual states only certified oil or oil company that claims if their product causes problems they will pay or even oil change places for not putting in certified oil?

 

[CT8]

Do we know the claim will be denied? My Fords have their number " MS XXXXXX what ever" as well as api sn rated oil listed in the manual . What does the owners manual state exactly.. The last Chrysler product I owned was a 1970 Challenger.

 

[StevieC]

My manual says that they recommend the use of API certified engine oil conforming to MS-6395 but doesn't say I have to absolutely use them. A conversation with Overkill in another thread where we posted different sections of our Chrysler owners manuals showed the wording is different depending on the vehicle.

So I would read your manual and see if it's a recommendation or it's a hard call out. Also read the section where it says warranty will not be denied on failure to provide receipts alone, so technically if you were a bad record keeper and the internals of the engine were clean it would be hard for them to deny warranty. And then for the US crowd there is the Moss-Magnuson act taking it further forcing the OE to prove it was a failure of the lubricant and not defect in their product.

Now that said there are many quality oils out there that meet the requirements so to avoid warranty headaches it's just easier to use what they "recommend" or "require" in your manual until the end of the warranty period.

Further to this in the manual it says that 5w30 can be used in place of 5w20 which is on the oil filler cap...

 

[double vanos]

This has often bugged me. Many times an oil will state its recommended for spec so and so, instead of listing that spec on it's list of certifications. Kinda under handed IMHO.
Is it that they don't want to spend the money to be certified or is it "we think it'll probably be ok"?
Meanwhile you're hanging in the wind.
Saying a product meets or exceeds a certain spec says one thing; a formulator saying it recommends it's product for a spec is another.

 

[tiger862]

Originally Posted by CT8
Do we know the claim will be denied? My Fords have their number " MS XXXXXX what ever" as well as api sn rated oil listed in the manual . What does the owners manual state exactly.. The last Chrysler product I owned was a 1970 Challenger.

Hypothetically speaking just a way out with manual states recommend but as we know depends on interpretation and that is up to lawers.

 

[dave1251]

It really does not matter in this example if the product meets API certification. The OEM does not stand on any firm ground for a warrant denial if changed at recommended intervals. For an OEM to prove any small claims it has to be proven without any other factors other than owner neglect for a claim to be denied. Thus it is easier for a OEM to replace the engine rather than take resources and time for an likely decision against the manufacturer.

 

[tiger862]

Originally Posted by dave1251
It really does not matter in this example if the product meets API certification. The OEM does not stand on any firm ground for a warrant denial if changed at recommended intervals. For an OEM to prove any small claims it has to be proven without any other factors other than owner neglect for a claim to be denied. Thus it is easier for a OEM to replace the engine rather than take resources and time for an likely decision against the manufacturer.

So you think it is easier for dealer to bite the bullet if customer used non certified fluids? Nowhere does it say GL5 or any other spec just Chrysler specs.

 

[Hall]

A lot of people interpret "recommended" with "required". I've seen people take a phrase from an owner's manual - just making up an example here - of something like "X Motor Co recommends the use of Castrol synthetic motor oil" and some will turn around and state unequivocally "it requires Castrol synthetic".

Another thing with certifications is, who does that ? Think about that - does Ford want to "certify" hundreds of different motor oil brands, types within each brand, viscosities, and so on ? H*** no they don't ! Most, it seems, put out a spec and the oil manufacturers "self-certify" that their different oils qualify. They use terms like "suitable for..." or "meets requirements of...".

 

[1JZ_E46]

I'm not sure about the Chrysler spec, but it's important to know the difference between a Specification/Standard and an Approval.

Specifications are self policed (e.g. Ford's specs, API, ACEA). These will be worded as "meets/exceeds the requirements of"

Approvals require the oil to actually be sent to the OEM (or an approved test lab) and are individually assessed and given a "Manufacturer approval." These will read as, "contains the following builder/manufacturer approvals," NOT "meets or exceeds the requirements of." If you see that, it is not approved.

 

[Oily_Thing]

Are Mobil 1 Regular, EP and AP that do not meet the MS-6395 standard better for the Chrysler engine than the lesser Mobil Super Synthetic oil that does meet the MS-6395 standard?

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by Oily_Thing
Are Mobil 1 Regular, EP and AP that do not meet the MS-6395 standard better for the Chrysler engine than the lesser Mobil Super Synthetic oil that does meet the MS-6395 standard?

They don't meet the requirement because XOM and Chrysler had a spat when Chrysler moved over to SOPUS so they didn't bother to certify their oil products to this standard as a result. Mobil 5000 is certified though.

The MS-6395 spec is largely so that the oil will last the length of the OLM, there is nothing special about it and any API licensed SN oil of the proper grade will meet the specifications requirements otherwise. I'd feel fine running any XOM oils of the proper grade that are SN rated in those applications.

 

[tiger862]

Originally Posted by Oily_Thing
Are Mobil 1 Regular, EP and AP that do not meet the MS-6395 standard better for the Chrysler engine than the lesser Mobil Super Synthetic oil that does meet the MS-6395 standard?

It has nothing to do with being better. If you have a failure that is considered oil related and dealer lets manufacturer know you are using an unapproved oil then it gets declined. How and who should pay for it
Do you trust Mobil1 or your insurance company to step up to the plate or are you going to lawyer up and leave it to courts? Either way you are out of a vehicle for a long period of time.

 

[1JZ_E46]

Originally Posted by Oily_Thing
Are Mobil 1 Regular, EP and AP that do not meet the MS-6395 standard better for the Chrysler engine than the lesser Mobil Super Synthetic oil that does meet the MS-6395 standard?


Just because an oil doesn't state a particular specification or approval, that doesn't mean the oil doesn't meet the requirements of said specification or approval.

 

[y_p_w]

Speaking about recommendations and certifications, I got curious about a particular car I'm thinking of getting, so I downloaded the 2018 Honda Civic Si owners manual. It's kind of an eye opener. The first thing they recommend is Honda Genuine Motor Oil (no specific weight given outside of a chart), then a 0W-20 detergent oil with the API certification (really the ILSAC starburst) seal. There is no specific letter standard (i.e. API SN) mentioned anywhere in the owners manual.

Quote
https://owners.honda.com/vehicles/information/2018/Civic-Si-Sedan/manuals
Recommended Engine Oil
• Honda Genuine Motor Oil
• Premium-grade 0W-20 detergent oil with an API Certification Seal on the
container

This seal indicates the oil is energy conserving and
that it meets the American Petroleum Institute's
latest requirements.

Use Honda Genuine Motor Oil or another
commercial engine oil of suitable viscosity for the
ambient temperature as shown.

You may also use synthetic motor oil if it is labeled
with the API Certification Seal and is of the
specified viscosity grade.


I'm not sure if maybe there's something on the oil cap that says anything more specific. I suppose it's always possible that someone finds or is given an older 0W-20 - maybe even as far back as API SJ.

 

[benjy]

manufactures try to bull poo you to overpaying when in reality you only need to match their recommendations. required means they must supply it FREE!! only issue is stealers have the $$$$ + slimey layers on retainer, they may be wrong but its gonna cost you time + $$$$ until a case is won. + as most here should know manufacturers get $$$ for any approvals + certs on the oil container which is why they all have their own spec, as always its the $$$$$$

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted by benjy
manufactures try to bull poo you to overpaying when in reality you only need to match their recommendations. required means they must supply it FREE!! only issue is stealers have the $$$$ + slimey layers on retainer, they may be wrong but its gonna cost you time + $$$$ until a case is won. + as most here should know manufacturers get $$$ for any approvals + certs on the oil container which is why they all have their own spec, as always its the $$$$$$

Powertrain issues rarely creep up during the warranty period anyways. But there are always those crazy issues (like Honda's VCM sludge monsters) where problems mostly happen after the warranty is up and the manufacturer blames it on the customer's maintenance (or lack thereof).

However, I did find a local dealer that claims a lifetime powertrain warranty for all new cars that it sells. Not exactly sure what their requirements are, but I suspect it would be to follow the maintenance minder.

 

[burla]

Originally Posted by tiger862
I will use Ms-6395 as an example. Pennzoil states that it is on its approval or recommend list to call help desk for certification list as well as Quakerstate. Valvoline states only conventional 5w20 or 5w30 is certified but Synthetic is recommended. Mobil website only has one synthetic as certified. These are just an example so my problem with this is when you go to a quick change or to Goodyear they sell 3 levels of oil changes with receipts that aren't certified oils. Now you have a record of recommended oil changes not certified and done on time. Let's say worse case cam lobe wears causing engine light and misfire then your records show not certified oil used so claim denied so now you are left with a bill. Who do you go after as dealer states manual states only certified oil or oil company that claims if their product causes problems they will pay or even oil change places for not putting in certified oil?


If you are worried then fix it, there are many men that have came before us who had to overcome great things in order to solve problems, they would have loved to have a problem so small as this. Auto manufactorers only have the right to deny warranty if they can PROVE the oil caused the failure. Now, it is actually more possible these days to do so with bearing issues, cam issues, and lspi events depending on the spec and the engine. Using the wrong oil can actually contribute to a failure. So guys legitematly worried about warranty work should stick with spec oils, just bring your own if your gonna use a quick change or DIY.

 

[burla]

Originally Posted by y_p_w
Speaking about recommendations and certifications, I got curious about a particular car I'm thinking of getting, so I downloaded the 2018 Honda Civic Si owners manual. It's kind of an eye opener. The first thing they recommend is Honda Genuine Motor Oil (no specific weight given outside of a chart), then a 0W-20 detergent oil with the API certification (really the ILSAC starburst) seal. There is no specific letter standard (i.e. API SN) mentioned anywhere in the owners manual.

Quote
https://owners.honda.com/vehicles/information/2018/Civic-Si-Sedan/manuals
Recommended Engine Oil
• Honda Genuine Motor Oil
• Premium-grade 0W-20 detergent oil with an API Certification Seal on the
container

This seal indicates the oil is energy conserving and
that it meets the American Petroleum Institute's
latest requirements.

Use Honda Genuine Motor Oil or another
commercial engine oil of suitable viscosity for the
ambient temperature as shown.

You may also use synthetic motor oil if it is labeled
with the API Certification Seal and is of the
specified viscosity grade.


I'm not sure if maybe there's something on the oil cap that says anything more specific. I suppose it's always possible that someone finds or is given an older 0W-20 - maybe even as far back as API SJ.


This From Your Gov't....



The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act makes it illegal for companies to void your warranty or deny coverage under the warranty simply because you used an aftermarket or recycled part. The manufacturer or dealer can, however, require consumers to use select parts if those parts are provided to consumers free of charge under the warranty. They can only require you to use Honda oil if they provide it for FREE, or they will loose in court. As that is a monopoly which goes against American principals. Go figure a car maker from a communist country would see it different, don't be afraid to deliver them some American justice if they mess with you.

 

[tiger862]

Originally Posted by burla
Originally Posted by y_p_w
Speaking about recommendations and certifications, I got curious about a particular car I'm thinking of getting, so I downloaded the 2018 Honda Civic Si owners manual. It's kind of an eye opener. The first thing they recommend is Honda Genuine Motor Oil (no specific weight given outside of a chart), then a 0W-20 detergent oil with the API certification (really the ILSAC starburst) seal. There is no specific letter standard (i.e. API SN) mentioned anywhere in the owners manual.

Quote
https://owners.honda.com/vehicles/information/2018/Civic-Si-Sedan/manuals
Recommended Engine Oil
• Honda Genuine Motor Oil
• Premium-grade 0W-20 detergent oil with an API Certification Seal on the
container

This seal indicates the oil is energy conserving and
that it meets the American Petroleum Institute's
latest requirements.

Use Honda Genuine Motor Oil or another
commercial engine oil of suitable viscosity for the
ambient temperature as shown.

You may also use synthetic motor oil if it is labeled
with the API Certification Seal and is of the
specified viscosity grade.


I'm not sure if maybe there's something on the oil cap that says anything more specific. I suppose it's always possible that someone finds or is given an older 0W-20 - maybe even as far back as API SJ.


This From Your Gov't....



The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act makes it illegal for companies to void your warranty or deny coverage under the warranty simply because you used an aftermarket or recycled part. The manufacturer or dealer can, however, require consumers to use select parts if those parts are provided to consumers free of charge under the warranty. They can only require you to use Honda oil if they provide it for FREE, or they will loose in court. As that is a monopoly which goes against American principals. Go figure a car maker from a communist country would see it different, don't be afraid to deliver them some American justice if they mess with you.

The act is outdated so much so that Ashland and others are petitioning government to update language to include oils spec. The BIG3 are against this as they claim failure of unapproved oils cause damage in newer technologies needed to meet fuel efficiency requirements. If you keep records on oil changes dealers want receipt and if oil is not on list then it is unapproved and manual states that could void warranty. With long finance plans warranty is longer and the disabled such as myself will pay for 7 year warranty anyhow note is not as long. What gets me is one company will only certify conventional not synthetic but another will certify synthetic so that makes it tough on consumers. Oil companies try to combat this by having their own warranty but you are to use their product exclusively.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by benjy
manufactures try to bull poo you to overpaying when in reality you only need to match their recommendations. required means they must supply it FREE!! only issue is stealers have the $$$$ + slimey layers on retainer, they may be wrong but its gonna cost you time + $$$$ until a case is won. + as most here should know manufacturers get $$$ for any approvals + certs on the oil container which is why they all have their own spec, as always its the $$$$$$

You are spreading lies!
I told you numerous times how much typical approval cots. It is not anyones fault that Redline cannot meet approval specifications with their "100%" synthetic oils.
Only companies that are involved in misinformation and lies are Redline, Royal Purple and similar.